Mageth

To think that the family of someone who is deeply religious (or deeply non-religious) would then be unconcerned by the hoistng of beliefs they do not hold upon them at such an emotional time is to not live in a real world.

Only if one considers Bush's comments on Saturday as the equivalent of him "hoisting his beliefs" on anyone; I don't agree with that assessment. In my opinion, anyone who lives in the "real world" would realize that many may have other beliefs than they do, and will sometimes, with good if perhaps misguided intention, express those beliefs at times like this, and not let themselves be disturbed by them. Of course there is a point beyond which the expression of beliefs would be disturbing, for example if Bush had expressed the belief that some of the astronauts are now in heaven but others are perhaps in hell. But his generic comments cannot and should not be misinterpreted that way.

In my opinion, far more disturbing comments were made by Bush in a speech to the nation nine days after 9/11, as quoted in the article previously linked to by Shake. I find these perhaps a better example of "hoisting of beliefs" by the President:

"The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them.

"Fellow citizens, we'll meet violence with patient justice -- assured of the rightness of our cause, and confident of the victories to come. In all that lies before us, may God grant us wisdom, and may He watch over the United States of America."

Rusting Car Bumper

This is interesting but what parts can be taken as true have nothing to do with the points I made. I will say however its very hard to classify the quoting of Isiah as "generic comments".

The question wasn't really about whther they were disturbing or even "offensive."

The question was that of asking if the speaking person had realized the diversity of the crew, the sensitive religious nature of possible comments toward the families and then had taken that into account. Its hard to objectively look at Bush's comments and think that he did.

DC

ybnormal

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
In any case NONE of us knows what the after death is like.

Once again, I request in a nice manner, that believers and xians STOP including me in your belief systems, for your own, selfish feel-good reasons.

I KNOW EXACTLY what the after death is like.


No previous experience to relate to.

Go look at some dead things. (anonymous, to my knowledge)

Mageth

Originally posted by Sabine Grant:

In any case NONE of us knows what the after death is like.
No previous experience to relate to.

How about "before birth"?

pz

When you turn off a lamp, do you also assume that the 'spirit of the light bulb' goes to a happy home in the sky?

fando

Of course they weren't. They were just peachy for the occasion. What you're failing to see is the exclusiveness and selfishness that permeates the speech. There are more inclusive ways to commemorate the Astronauts. How did this point get lost after 2 pages?

I for one have been close enough to the whole NASA thing for a long time. I worked at JPL for a summer, have watched NASA TV excessively, have met John Glenn and three other Astronauts personally, have been the president of a SEDS chapter in college, and am one of the staunchest advocates of space exploration manned or unmanned. The sad thing is that Bush's speech has failed to connect with me. His comments felt completely exclusive. If I had attended a memorial service and Bush gave a speech, I would probably have walked out because he has failed to include me in his worldview. Who is this guy and why does he get to speak for me while leaving me out? I would love to return the favor to him: Bush does not represent the spirit of space exploration, he's just a bandwagon rider. He might feel the loss personally, but the hell he's gonna speak for me.

abe smith

Obviously Their CEO (Not mine; I didn't vote for him!) perceives every public event, of whatever sort as a PUBLICITY opportunity; and knows very well of course the FIRST principle: *There is NO BAD PUBLICITY.*. (Like the Mayor of my city, who never ever misses a chance to smear his mug onto the front of the local daily rag.)
I do resent profoundly Their President's using public, taxpayers's MONEY to enhance himself, campaign for himself & his adherents. to promote his own agendas (=a double plural) and biases; and (in my own biases) I think my fellow citizens will eventually regret their letting him get away w/ that shit.
But probably they WON'T regret it; they won"t know nor care what they've lost.

Mageth

Fando said:

What you're failing to see is the exclusiveness and selfishness that permeates the speech. There are more inclusive ways to commemorate the Astronauts. How did this point get lost after 2 pages?

If you read back through my posts in this thread, you'll see that several times I've said things such as:

I too would have preferred Bush to have made his remarks less religious, to "say the right things" as you mentioned, or at least said something more inclusive along the lines of what I mentioned earlier: "For those of us that take comfort in religion..."

So no, that point is not lost on me.

openeyes

Sabine wrote:You said you'd pick the first assumption. I, on the other hand, see the overwhelming evidence for the second, and think I'd be doing my children a disservice not to be real about how I think the world works.

FYI, my children have had to deal with the death of their father. and I think they are handling it well. Time will tell (it's been 5 1/2 years). I think being honest with the circumstances has helped them deal with a very difficult situation.

abe smith

Yeh, OPENEYES, et al. (opinion >>> At My Age) that believing/telling what we think at-present is factual (corrected from "true") probably keeps the deck cleaner than telling/believing cheery LIES, to ourselves & to others more vulnerable than us, in order to FEEL GOOD.
For example Mumma 's behaviour taught me, (when about age 11, I saw her contradict herself) that when you LIE to children, the effect is to destroy/wise them up to reject, ALL ASSERTIONS OF SELF-APPOINTED AUTHORITIES.
Seeing-through Shit-From-On-High is the beginning of wisdom.