Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 08-28-2002, 10:30 AM

Why should we?

Christians satisfy this longing by worshipping God, who we believe to be a personal being posessing a mind will and emotions like we do.

Going flyfishing with my friend works for me.

TooBad · 08-28-2002, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
...I didn't spend the rest of my life seeking reassurance from other disbelievers in Santa that I am correct in my assumption. Did you?

Until you've managed to abandon all your imaginary friends, GeoTheo, are you really in a position to taunt others for choosing to rely on real people for their moral support?

[Edit: Apologies for this off-topic and not very edifying post. I'm not in a good mood today]

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: TooBad ]

GeoTheo · 08-28-2002, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TooBad:

Until you've managed to abandon all your imaginary friends, GeoTheo, are you really in a position to taunt others for choosing to rely on real people for their moral support?

[Edit: Apologies for this off-topic and not very edifying post. I'm not in a good mood today]

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: TooBad ]

You are using cultural transference to shape your view of reality. The fact that I point this out makes you uncomfortable because it makes it your beliefs look subjective, which they are. This causes you to get upset. I was able to push your buttons like you push mine when you liken my belief to a belief in Santa.
I will prove I get more out of my belief in God than children do in their belief in Santa, when you can prove this whole forum is more than a great big bunch of little kids reassuring themselves there is no Santa.

TooBad · 08-28-2002, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:

You are using cultural transference to shape your view of reality. The fact that I point this out makes you uncomfortable because it makes it your beliefs look subjective, which they are. This causes you to get upset. I was able to push your buttons like you push mine when you liken my belief to a belief in Santa.

Well, the fact that we can all push each other's buttons is of precisely no relevance when we're evaluating each other's arguments. We all have some emotional stake in the issues, otherwise we wouldn't be here, but one's underlying motives for making a case should be clearly distinguished from the intellectual validity of that case. I hope we can agree on this, at least, if on little else.

daemon · 08-28-2002, 11:24 AM

Come on guys, take it to another thread.

scombrid · 08-28-2002, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:


Actually I heard they don't posess a sense of self. This is evidenced by the fact that mothers may drown their young while crossing rivers. The baby clings to the belly. The mother is not aware that it cannot breathe because she can breath.
Little human children who haven't fully developed a sense of self use similar logic. They somtimes think no one can see them when they hide their eyes.

As far as your other point. There is no reason to believe the image of God is contianed in the DNA we share with chimps. I am not at all making a divergence with Christian theology by saying the image of God is in our mind, will and emotions.
I would assume we could in a sense reduce this to naturalistic biological causes. But that does not take away from the fact that we are still unique and very distinct from chimps. I think the desire to bring chimps into the human family stems from a longing to fellowship with other personal beings.
Christians satisfy this longing by worshipping God, who we believe to be a personal being posessing a mind will and emotions like we do.
Others seek to communicate with the dead or with alien beings. We all see to share a longing for some way of knowing we are not all alone in the world.

I may post a more lengthy response discussing the sense of self and human versus animal behavior in MRD or a new topic in E&C discussing the evolution of behavior in social animals. However, I'll be brief here since I'm participating in a thread derailing and I'd really like to see Vanderzyden address the replies directly related to his original "answer".

I will simply state that behaviorally we aren't anything more than really intelligent animals. Our compassion and guilt(the general basis for what most people consider morality) can be explained by selection pressures that favor these traits in social animals.

Quote:

But that does not take away from the fact that we are still unique and very distinct from chimps

Yeah, and chimps are unique from apes. Does that mean that chimps were created by the chimp god?

For response on Santa I'll either be in Rants or Misc. Rel. Disc.

Vanderzyden · 08-28-2002, 12:40 PM

You see, Doubting D, I guess I shouldn't have made that reply here, since the thread is gone way off topic.

I'm sorry, folks, but none of replies so far have been substantive. It's the same ol' stuff. In fact, all of the whining about "out-of-context" quotes and evasive maneuvers is nothing but strong affirmation of the article shown in the thread "The ID whining continues..."

What I find most interesting is the lack of presented evidence for NATURAL CHROMOSOME FUSION. This <a href="http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creation/translocation.html" target="_blank">link</a> contains nothing but pure speculation. Without such evidence, the discussion is fruitless, and we might as well move on to other more important topics. Would someone please direct me to some good resources for this supposed phenomenon?

Also, does anyone know if Scigirl intends to respond?

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]

lpetrich · 08-28-2002, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:

I'm sorry, folks, but none of replies so far have been substantive. It's the same ol' stuff. In fact, all of the whining about "out-of-context" quotes and evasive maneuvers is nothing but strong affirmation of the article shown in the thread "The ID whining continues..."

VZ, are you claiming that your quotes were not out of context?

I propose that they are, because they had come with papers that discuss the early evolution of life, not papers on human and great-ape evolution, which would be much more relevant to this subject.

Skeptical · 08-28-2002, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
What I find most interesting is the lack of presented evidence for NATURAL CHROMOSOME FUSION. This <a href="http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creation/translocation.html" target="_blank">link</a> contains nothing but pure speculation. Without such evidence, the discussion is fruitless, and we might as well move on to other more important topics. Would someone please direct me to some good resources for this supposed phenomenon?

Are you asking to be shown that chromosome fusion occurs? If that's what your asking, although there are more qualified individuals on this list, I'll post some links I found by searching on google for "chromosome+fusion". None of these articles are specifically trying to argue that chromosome fusion occurs, but they all mention it. As far as I can tell, no one who does genetics studies seriously doubts that fusions occur because there are so many known cases of it occuring in and out of the lab. It's a little like asking a physicist to prove gravity.

I'm not really sure if your trying to say that you doubt fusions occur or that you doubt that fusion has occured in the specific case of human chromosome #2?

Any way, here are some links. If you want more, I'm sure someone here can point you to a good textbook on genetics if you want something more detailed or more authoratative.

<a href="http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/LL/B/B/C/D/_/llbbcd.pdf" target="_blank">http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/LL/B/B/C/D/_/llbbcd.pdf</a> (it's a little dated at 1942, but the first paragraph establishes chromosome fusion was known even then)

<a href="http://www.lanl.gov/worldview/news/releases/archive/01-104.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.lanl.gov/worldview/news/releases/archive/01-104.shtml</a> (an interesting article on telomeres and fusions)

<a href="http://www.dsls.usra.edu/dsls/meetings/bio2001/pdf/250p.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.dsls.usra.edu/dsls/meetings/bio2001/pdf/250p.pdf</a> (mentions chromosome fusion in the first paragraph)

<a href="http://www.gramene.org/newsletters/rice_genetics/rgn5/v5I6.html" target="_blank">http://www.gramene.org/newsletters/rice_genetics/rgn5/v5I6.html</a> (fusion in plants)

<a href="http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/tt/1996/feb28/41684.html" target="_blank">http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/tt/1996/feb28/41684.html</a> (talks about chromosome fusion WRT lukemia)

<a href="http://www.nature.com/nsu/990318/990318-8.html" target="_blank">http://www.nature.com/nsu/990318/990318-8.html</a> (mentions chromosome fusion in mice)

<a href="http://www.kursus.kvl.dk/shares/vetgen/_Popgen/genetics/10/3.htm" target="_blank">http://www.kursus.kvl.dk/shares/vetgen/_Popgen/genetics/10/3.htm</a> (talks about fusions in cattle and other animals)

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Skeptical ]

Blinn · 08-28-2002, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:

What I find most interesting is the lack of presented evidence for NATURAL CHROMOSOME FUSION. This <a href="http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creation/translocation.html" target="_blank">link</a> contains nothing but pure speculation. Without such evidence, the discussion is fruitless, and we might as well move on to other more important topics. Would someone please direct me to some good resources for this supposed phenomenon?

Also, does anyone know if Scigirl intends to respond?

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]

Pick up an introductory biology text and start reading. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> Rearrangements in chromosomes are hardly a new concept. Barbara McClintock was looking at "jumping genes" decades ago.

A fusion occurs when two nonhomologous acrocentric chromosomes, in which the centromeres are nearly terminal, may undergo reciprocal translocation near the centromeres so that they are joined into a metacentric chromosome.(Futuyma, 3rd ed.)

Fusions and fissions can distinguish geographic populations of the same species, such as the pocket mouse, Perognathus goldmani.

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Zetek ]

08-28-2002, 12:40 PM	#47
Vanderzyden Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: California Posts: 694	You see, Doubting D, I guess I shouldn't have made that reply here, since the thread is gone way off topic. I'm sorry, folks, but none of replies so far have been substantive. It's the same ol' stuff. In fact, all of the whining about "out-of-context" quotes and evasive maneuvers is nothing but strong affirmation of the article shown in the thread "The ID whining continues..." What I find most interesting is the lack of presented evidence for NATURAL CHROMOSOME FUSION. This <a href="http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creation/translocation.html" target="_blank">link</a> contains nothing but pure speculation. Without such evidence, the discussion is fruitless, and we might as well move on to other more important topics. Would someone please direct me to some good resources for this supposed phenomenon? Also, does anyone know if Scigirl intends to respond? [ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-28-2002, 10:30 AM	#41
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Why should we? Christians satisfy this longing by worshipping God, who we believe to be a personal being posessing a mind will and emotions like we do. Going flyfishing with my friend works for me.

08-28-2002, 11:24 AM	#45
daemon Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 737	Come on guys, take it to another thread.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.