Shake

The following comes from the first link listed above, and one of my favorites:(emphasis added for effect)

Buffman

SLD

...no one knows what went on in that committee nor the debate on the exact phraseology.

Are you familiar with this?

"The Complete Bill of Rights: The Drafts, Debates, Sources, & Origins" edited by Neil H. Cogan, Oxford University Press, New York/Oxford, 1997, Chap. I, pgs. 1-82

During that period of early American History, the men who can be called the "founding fathers" were some of the most highly educated in the country. Thus, they were well aware of "Enlightenment" philosophies regardless of their religious denomination affiliations. Additionally, it would seem wise to note that the Theory of Evolution was still over 80 years in the future. Thus, some manner of supernatural "creator" was the only, available to them, possibility of how the universe and humanity arose.

SLD

Not that book specifically, but I have looked at the Congressional Records on the Bill of Rights, and IIRC, there were no records kept of the proceedings of the joint committee between the House and Senate that actually came up with the final draft of the Bill of Rights that we have today. Also, I seem to recall someone posting a link to the Congressional Record on the debate and posting excerpts from it in a debate on this very matter about a year or so ago on these boards. Anyone remember that one? I'll do a Google search and see what I can find.

SLD

SLD

OK, after much searching I did find this good site for searching the records of Congress:

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/hlawquery.html

I searched merely for the word Religion for the House and Senate and found several entries that show the evolution of the wording, but I recall reading some comments by Madison on the matter and didn't see these in the documents I found from this site.

SLD

Buffman

SLD

Sorry! I am so damn slow at typing that I seem to fall several posts behind the normal flow.

The book I cited above contains every known accurate, published, reference available about the issue. (Quite honestly, it contains so many that it can be very confusing .)

Here is what I was working on while you were doing such helpful research. (I spent too much time on it to simply junk it.)



SLD

We would be far better off if we were to adopt Madison's and Jefferson's views on the matter rather than attempt to try to find out what it was they "really" meant in the Constitution. The fact is that the original wording meant different things to different founders and trying to find out the "true" meaning of the language is a useless exercise.

Though I am in full accord with the wisdom of those two thoughts, I am encountering some problems concerning their application within the current Christian fundamentalist crusades. How does one appropriately respond when others appear to be selectively perverting the views of Madison, Jefferson, and many others? To remain silent merely encourages further perversions. To offer countering opinions is only as successful as the means to expose them to the largest audience. However, even then, without verifiable evidence to support one's opinions, they remain exactly that...individual opinions. (Under those conditions, does not the "majority opinion" usually prevail?

This particular group of men created something unique in the history of humankind. Why them? Why then? Why there? What were the conditions, factors, experiences, knowledge that these men brought to the table that no group had brought before, and that so many, seemingly more knowledgeable and enlightened people, seem unable to bring to the table today? Perhaps that original wording "did not" mean different things to different founders. Perhaps it "is" (if at all possible) a useful exercise to better, accurately, understand all the factors about which they had common knowledge and experiences.

I will readily agree that there is no fool-proof way to read their minds to arrive at a "true" meaning of the language. However, it is my "opinion" that only with a careful examination of all the internal/external factors that contributed to the evolution of the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights can we hope to keep America on the philosophical bed upon which these men laid the tracks that our engine of government follows...until lately.

I further agree that the true genius of the Constitution is that it is a living document capable of self-modification over time and changing circumstances...primarily due to increased accurate knowledge via scientific methodologies/technical advancements/human conditioning techniques. Organized religious faith tends to survive and grow based on conditioned adherence to specific dogma. Modification, if it comes at all, can take centuries. Modifications to the Constitution come when the required number of states agree to that modification and can come within a few years time. Five Supreme Court Justices can modify the Constitution almost overnight via their personal interpretations of the "true" meaning of the language contained therein. So when I encounter the likes of David Barton and his zealous Christian supporters attempting to reinterpret the words of the founders based on anything that can not be verified, I believe that it is "extremely useful" to expose that propaganda.

I'm not sure if all this palaver conveys what disturbs me about your remarks or not. I just know that they did trigger something that did not sit right with me and caused me to seek the "accurate" source.

Zora

The entire "Christian Nation" argument depends on the stupidity of the general public. There is ample information available in any library in the United States to show the religious beliefs of Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson. Each wrote voluminously about their disdain for Christianity. It is slightly more difficult to find out what Madison, Franklin and Washington believed.

But, telling the truth has never been a high priority among those promoting the Christian religion. It is the "end justifies the means" argument.

So, we have the stupid and lazy who will never try to find the truth themselves. We have those who are capable of finding the truth, but just won't look for fear it will upset them. We have those who looked, didn't like what they found, so are going to ignore what doesn't fit their pre-conceived notion. Then we have those who are making a good living off the first two groups, so they keep the falsehoods coming (like David Barton.)

There is also the current movement to attack the character of those who are "non-Christian" founders (just in case we can't convince everyone they were Christian, we can vilify them. Nice. Real "Christian.") Paine is described as a loser and an alcoholic who never accomplished anything in his life. Washington is portrayed as a disgruntled man who participated in the Revolution because he was not accepted in English high-society. Jefferson is portrayed as two-faced because he had slaves but said he was against slavery...then the "Sally Hemings" situation. Franklin is portrayed as a dirty old man. Madison is shown as hen-pecked.

If you have any doubts about the beliefs of Jefferson, check out his writings on the University of Virginia website. While their entire collection is not posted on-line, there is enough available to end any discussion of his beliefs. (I haven't been there in awhile. Maybe Dubya has shut them down.) He wrote a lengthy piece specifically refuting the idea that our laws are based on the Christian religion. It is difficult to follow if one is not familiar with the legal references he gives, but he concludes that our laws are based on English law, which was derived from the Saxons (I think it was) prior to Christianity.

Washington wrote a letter to a Jewish clergyman following the Revolution which addressed the concerns of the Jewish community in respect to their standing in the new nation. (There were 50 Jewish officers in the American Revolution.) In it he stated that the new nation would "give to bigotry no quarter."
So, that would indicate that the nation, at the very least, was Judeo-Christian.

Some of us are always going to know the truth, no matter how many others change it to suit their purposes. Copies of the Jefferson and Paine writings are all over the globe. I don't think even George Bush can ever get them ALL.

We just have to keep educating people, and handing out copies of Crazy Finger's "show me" list.

Buffman

Zora,

Thanks! I needed that. However, how do we educate anyone when almost our entire Congress is asleep at the American History switch and signs on to the Barton propaganda?

SLD

Zora, do you have a link to that article?

TIA

SLD

Zora

I am not sure if I found it on line, but I have a book of Jefferson's writings. The subject was addressed in a letter he wrote to Dr. Thomas Cooper, written February 10, 1814. In the book, the letter is captioned "Christianity and the Common Law" and he entitled his article (which was an enclosure to the letter) "common-place book." That should give you enough information to do a search for the article. I'd start on the University of Virginia website. I will do that later today when I have more time, and will post the link if I find it.

I agree that educating people is an uphill battle. But, we have our own children to teach and that's where we need to start. We can't count on public school to tell them the real story, so we have to discuss these things with them at home. We just have to be more vigilant than we were in the past. We now must teach birth control, evolution, American History, how to use the public library, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Young teens have well-developed "bull shit detectors." So, unless and until intelligence is bred out of our society completely, there will always be those who question. I think Ingersoll said it is fortunate that man has the natural tendency to rebel. And, I think it is fortunate there are other belief systems around the world that will always put Christianity under the microscope.

Meanwhile, get as many non-fundies to register to vote as possible. If all the eligible young people would register and actually vote for candidates who wish to return to the inclusive ideals our country was founded upon, the situation could be turned around. It happened in the 60's with Civil Rights, and it can happen again.

Buffman

SLD

More info on the issue of Jefferson's writings:

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/joestor4.htm

(Added)

I believe that Jim Allison has provided exactly what you seek.