bltl6

I meant that the majorty hold to Rom. 10:9-10 alone, while othes in a smaller group hold to Rom. 10:9-10 + baptisim, and still others in another minority group hold to Rom. 10:9-10 + speaking in tounges, etc.

My point was that while there are differences of opinion among Evangelicals about what a true Christian is, the majority hold to the same understanding in regards to salvation.

ex-preacher

Don't whisper a word of this to the Church of Christ. They know they are the true church and they know that baptism is required for salvation. I think Catholics require baptism too, but they aren't True Christians, anyway, are they? Have you read the feature article on Christian Salvation?

HelenM

Thanks for pointing out that article. I'm going to print it so I can read it carefully.

love
Helen

bltl6

I see were you're coming from with the Bible. But couldn't it be uneducated people and crafty leaders with their own agendas that are mis-interpeting the Bible, rather than the Bible being full of double-talk?

When I said sign-laugage, I ment that, though some people phisically can't pronounce words, they speak in sign-language, and those who do, can confess Christ using that means.

As far as your point of "practical consequences", what do you mean?

bltl6

Yes I did read it. I found it very interesting. But I wouldnt consider the Church of Christ a majority among all the Baptists, EV Free chuches, Calvary churches, AG churches, etc. And I was speaking of the majority.

As far as Catholics go, I don't know a whole lot, just read a few books on the subject and visited a service once. But I have known Chatholics that seem to be true Chritians, and some that don't. Just like I've met Baptists that seem to be true Chritians, and some that don't. The Bible doesn't speak of having to attend a particular denomination, only belief in Christ--the kind of belief that is spoken of in Jn 3:16 and Rom. 10:9-10.

bltl6

I think the heart is the essence of a person. It's the very being of that person. To belive with all your heart is to believe with all of your very being.

ManM

ex-preacher,
Information about Metropolitan Hierotheos can be found <a href="http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b0niben.htm" target="_blank">here.</a> Come to think of it, the chapter I am referencing can also be found online <a href="http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b24.en.life_after_death.07.htm#par2" target="_blank">here.</a>. The Fathers of the Church are theologians such as St. Isaac the Syrian, St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Gregory Palamas, etc... Your 'majority of orthodox Christian theologians' are not in line with what the historical Fathers of the Church taught. How then can you call them orthodox?

Your next issue confuses me. Who said anything about requests? I only said that the prayer revealed Jesus's desire for our unity. Wasn't the original question directed toward what Jesus actually desired? My claim is that Jesus desired our unity. My evidence is his prayer.

If you have a problem with prayer being a product of desire, I challenge you to conceive of any other source. What prayer does not follow from desire?

I almost get the feeling that you are trying to rehash a classic problem. Why would Jesus pray? He's God, right? If He truly desired us to be one, we would be one, right? How could we (or anything for that matter) oppose the desires of the omnipotent God? Well as Paul Evdokimov wrote, "If man exists, God is no longer free." But that is <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=000361" target="_blank">another topic</a>, for another day.

[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: ManM ]</p>

ex-preacher

Wow - what a trip. Here are some of the choicer quotes from that site:

<strong> I think the problem here may be my use of the word "orthodox." I did not mean "Greek Orthodox," but orthodox as opposed to heretical. The vast majority of those considered church fathers by the Western church, AKA Roman Catholics or "Franko-Latins", support the idea of eternal conscious torment in a hell created by God. Individuals such as Augustine, Tertullian, etc.

<strong> I do not argue that Jesus desired unity. I'm saying that he also prayed for (or requested) it. My question: Why did Jesus' prayer fail so spectacularly?

<strong> I agree, prayer (requests made to god) comes from desire.

<strong> Not what I had in mind, but you raise a fascinating question. God desired something and prayed to himself for it, but he said no to himself for reasons that only he himself knows?

[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: ex-preacher ]</p>

brian

O.K. I know I'm new to this and I hope my "reply" is set up right. It's amazing how much discussion this topic has generated. Sometimes, there's so much information being passed around that it's hard to know what's coming from where...

But along the lines of the above quote...I think that this is an interesting question and one of the reasons we are not always sure who is and isn't a "true Christian".

I'd like to first say (in my humble opinion) that whether or not Jesus' prayer for unity did or didn't fail depends on what kind of "unity" or rather, how general he used the term, Jesus was referring to. In other words...what is the "unity" he's talking about?

Although I disagree with my "fellow christians" on some points, we are "unified" in that, we hold to the same general "truths":
1. Jesus is God/Lord
2. We are sinners
3. We can't save ourselves (from our sin and the consequences that come with that...in this life or the next)
4. Jesus made a way possible for us to be saved

Generally speaking, these points (to one degree or another-you could hyper-focus on them and get too far off the main point)are what makes a true Christian.

If in fact what I've said is true, then though we (Christians) disagree on things, we are "unified" in that we believe in those four basic concepts. (Although I don't like to really label them as "the 4 concepts"...it sounds to "creedish". But how else can I say it?)

Which would also mean, that Jesus' prayer WAS answered because Christians are unified under these truths.

ex-preacher

The problem here is that you have created a circular argument. By defining all true Christians as those who agree on those four points, you effectively cut out all others as fake Christians.

For instance, if someone said that the only true Christians are those who take communion every Sunday, they could then show that all those who take communion every Sunday are unified (at least on that point) and thus Jesus' prayer was answered.

There are and have been individuals who consider(ed) themselves Christians who would disagree with one or more of your 4 points. One of the biggest controversies in early Christianity was over the question of Jesus' divinity.

I don't think you can read Jesus' prayer in John 17 and think that what he really had in mind was 33,800 denominations that disagree over every imaginable point of doctrine. Is that what it means to "be one, as you and I are one"? He prayed for total unity among the believers, not general agreement on a sketch of major points.