Vandrare

on this issue i really dont think giving a woman a gun to protect herself is going ot help or uncomplicate anything.

firstly i think guns are just a bad idea in general! this is no doubt influenced by living in australia where we have strict gun laws, but i dont see how having a gun and having people shoot each other in the street helps.

secondly it makes a woman judge, jury and executioner all within an instant at a time when she is probably terrified, with adrenalin pumping through her body, and not thinking straight! if your going to have the power to do something as final as take someones life that easily, you want to be damn sure you have everything in the situation worked out properly. and as daleth was saying, its so easy to misinterpret any number of factors here including the motive of the *possible* assailant, and also to be safe you almost need to react before your able to be certain. also, if the woman being attacked is a previous rate victim, she is quite likely going to be much quicker to jump to a conclusion to stop that ordeal happening again.

thirdly as Pyrrho was saying, the majority or rapes are in fact by people that the victim knows. going by some figure from an australian study in '88-'91, 46% of the rapes were by a partner, ex-partner, or close friend, 30% by people known by name or by sight, and only 24% by a stranger. would you really shoot your ex boyfriend etc?

lastly, i wonder about the punishment fitting the crime. does someone deserve to die just for commiting rape?
there's so many issues here that just cant be resolved on the spot - a gun would be a terrible addition to the situation.

if this is a big issue for some women afraid of rape, how about pepper spray or those tazers for protection - they're much less final!

:-D Anna

enfant terrible

I fully agree with Pyrrho, and add a few bits:

1. Guns owned by law-abiding citizens for protection purposes are almost never used against an attacker. If they are used at all, it is typically against the owner or a member of the owner's family.

2. Self-defense requires actual and imminent danger. If someone is just bothering and harassing you, you may not shoot them. It's manslaughter at least, possibly murder.

3. Few people can use a gun effectively under actual and imminent danger.

4. If you mess up with a gun, you can kill or injure yourself or an innocent third person.

5. Unlike guns, martial arts are good for your health in general, and useful even if you are never in danger. And they enable you to stun the attacker without much risk of killing him.

Vandrare

i'm a very big fan of martial arts myself, and there's a lot of fantastic reasons to do it. but martial arts are not neccesarily self defence, and should not be advertised as such. whereas aspects of martial arts could help with self defence, if a woman wanted to learn how best to take care of herself the better idea would be to take self defence classes.

:-D Anna

Kenneth

I don't believe in guns, whether it's for self-defense or sports.

Rare is the criminal who warns you before he attacks. Chances are he'll attack you when you are least prepared, like hitting you from behind. In that case, he not only committed a crime against you, he now also has your gun. Talk about insult to injury.

The same with women with arms. No rapist ever warned his victims beforehand. Again, chances are you will be attack when you least expected it--like when you're sleeping or drunk. Again, in that case, he not only got what he wanted, he also has your gun.

keyser_soze

Tazer, stun gun, or a knife. Personally, for close up work, a knife is not as clean, but it's quiet and more compact than any other option. Unlike the tazer, it's also entirely more long lasting. Avoid long bladed weapons, they're too unwieldy. You're looking for something in the 4" range--but dagger form, lockknifes can be difficult to open in an emergency...If it's single edged, you want to keep the edge up then aim for the abdomen or the groin, stab in then pull up or to the side). Keep it out of sight until you can use it. Don't pull it and threaten, it's too easy to take away if you're inexperienced. Get a velcro strap knife holster for the ankle or forearm, a purse is usually pulled away first. Don't stab for the chest, a lot of people lack the strength to make it through the sternum or they graze off a rib. The abdomen is the weakest area. If you find that you are already on your back with a guy on you, don't aim for the upper back. Go for the kidney area, cut accross from the spine to the side. You have a good chance of him going into shock immediately, and death usually will occur within a few minutes.

Can't get to your knife, gun, taser and the guy has your arms pinned and your legs spread? Your forehead is an excellent weapon. Aim for the nose, repeatedly. This also works if he is behind you holding you. For a woman, kicks, elbows, and the head are your most useful weapons. I would always suggest self defense courses(avoid the pretty martial arts forms, they're elegant, but not often useful). Go for something ugly and efficient. Just remember, when you have someone on the ground stunned, and you are in a secluded place, beat the hell out of them. Kicks to the head are preferred, as they keep a perp stunned and immobile. If it's a public place, take off when they're down. It is foolish for a woman to depend on assistance from pedestrians however, there are more than a few cases where a woman was raped or murdered in front of people and no one did anything. A gun is efficient, but you need to learn two rules. Body mass shots(screw double tap police style shots, fire until you are out of rounds--but don't fire wildly...aim), and to step away from the assailant as quick as possible so that they can't take the gun from you after you draw your weapon. Unlike the knife, you need distance with a handgun(but not too much..don't practice beyond 10 yards at the range unless you want to keep shooting as a hobby. Even better would be a quick targets range, where you have automatic raising targets so that you get used to mobile targets. A bullseye at 30 yards or more is relaxing, but not reality based. Look after yourself, no one else will. Get GOOD training, and practice a LOT. It needs to be second nature, any weapon or training does. There are far too many instances where a person(man or woman), with a blackbelt got their asses handed to them against an untrained assailant because it was not their nature to react in an emergency with force. And check your local laws pertaining to firearm ownership.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Kenneth
Chances are he'll attack you when you are least prepared, like hitting you from behind. In that case, he not only committed a crime against you, he now also has your gun. Talk about insult to injury.

There are certain guns with magnetic locks that can only be fired if the person holding the gun is wearing a corresponding magnetic ring.

Regarding the topic, a gun in itself isn't going to do jack. A gun + lessons in how to use it + the right frame of mind + an opportunity to use it = preventing a crime.

Daleth

Although nothing in this post specified exactly what the level of risk might be to the victim and I know I'm drawing too much from it, between this and yguy's comment about fining a woman $1 for killing a would-be mugger, this thread is making me nervous. What's the general consensus: Is it moral to use deadly force against someone who's not threatening your life?

Odemus

Tori Amos rules, that is all.

keyser_soze

If the choice is between a woman being raped and a rapist dying...I'll hold him while you get the knife. I have absolutely nothing against the killing in self defense. Predators deserve whatever they get. Do you think a woman should just lay there and accept the rape, and possible murder to follow? Never strive to injure, that kind of thinking gets women killed every day. They only seek to stop the person without more harm than necessary. Meanwhile the guy gets pissed that she hurt him and cuts her throat. Screw him, kill him when the chance arrives, and he is guaranteed to not hurt you again. You cannot know if he is not going to hurt you beyond the rape(which to me is adequate reason to kill in the first place), women are frequently killed following a rape, so she can not be asked to judge his intentions while he is already physically assaulting her.

BTW, yguy may be a troll most of the time, but sometimes he is correct. Watch thing and all.

Daleth

OK, disclaimer or something along those lines. Talking about rape scares the crap out of me. I am shaking and nauseous as I type this. It's not because I've ever been raped. It's because I feel like I'm revealing myself to be a monster of some sort. There is a huge amont of public rhetoric surrounding rape, and it has increase throughout my life. Rape is considered by many the worst possible crime besides murder, and there seems to be a growing public sentiment that rape should be a capital crime. And I feel like there must be something deeply wrong with me because I don't feel like rape is the worst thing that could happen to me short of murder. There are other crimes that scare me a lot more. The rhetoric is so heated that I sincerely feel like I must be defective to feel this way, and the nausea is the result of feeling like my relative lack of fear is completely socially unacceptable. I do not in any way mean to diminish the harm that's done to so many women by anything I say here and I have great sympathy towards the victims of this crime. If what I'm saying is harmful to victims of rape, I'll shut up.

I understand the feeling, and put like that it's hard to disagree. Yet I'm not sure I agree completely.

Neither do I, but I've always understood killing in self-defense to mean in defense of one's life.

No.

Does it? I'm really asking... does it happen every day? Later on you say "women are frequently killed following a rape". How frequently? Rape is a very common crime. Most cases are date rape or other known assailant. If 1 in 10 women will be raped in their lives, how many of those will also be murdered? How many seriously injured?

I agree with that completely in cases of rape by a stranger. In the far more common case of rape by a known assailant, there's a much better chance that you could know what's going on, what the real level of threat is, whether an injury will be enough to let your ex-boyfriend know that when you said no you bloody well meant no. A lot of rapists are neither homocidal maniacs nor raving sociopaths. Not to give them any excuse whatsoever, but the psychology of a one time date rapist is not the same as that of a guy who grabs women as they walk through dark parking lots.

Yeah, I know he's right sometimes, but please don't tell me this means you think it's fine to condemn people to death for trying to take the $40 you've got in your wallet.