mike_decock

If I created all 6 people, knowing that I would punish 4 of them so that 2 of them would be happy, I would not be benevolent.

I would also argue that no finite crime deserves infinite punishment but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

You're saying that humans freely choose evil. This is a design flaw. The flaw is designer's fault, not the fault of the design.

You don't need to suffer starvation in order to savor a piece of cake. Pleasure does not rely on suffering.

God knew that humans would choose evil when exercising free will. That makes Him responsible and, ultimately, the cause of all suffering.

Let me restate your original definition because you shifted the definitions on me during the last post and I didn't catch it.

Now think about a world C' that is defined as following: a world exactly the same as C, except for the fact that the decision of Adolf Hitler to attempt to exterminate the Jews is reversed.

I would define Hitler's ordering their placement into concentration camps part of his "attempt to exterminate the Jews".

So really, you're arguing that C' (C without Hitler's attempt to exterminate the Jews) cannot equal C (including Hitler's attempt to exterminate the Jews) because C' does not include Hitler's attempt to exterminate the Jews?

I think that's what they call a strawman.

Yes. Even playing with your strawman, Hitler's order to place those individuals in concentration champs could have been caused by an infinite number of different reasons.

What I find most disturbing about this discussion is that someone would actually defend that Hitler's extermination of the Jews was necessary for The Plan (TM). I'm glad I don't have to defend such a morally reprehensible position.

-Mike...

Radorth

Which we had already, and no skeptic could answer whether eternal rebellion and the resulting sin warranted eternal punishment.

To discount this question, you must prove that no one in hell continues to rebell and sin.

Rad

mike_decock

And the facts remain the same. According the to your scriptures, Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil until they ate the fruit:

Genesis 3
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

They did not know good from evil. They did not know that obedience was good and disobedience was bad. They simply followed the suggestion of the serpent and ate. How were they supposed to know that disobedience was a sin? They did not know good from evil!

It means that God cursed all of mankind for an innocent mistake.

It's such a sick and twisted doctrine that I can't understand how any person with any sense of morality, justice or intellectual honesty can defend it.

-Mike...

mike_decock

Can you "sin" in Hell or are you too busy being tortured?

No, you must prove that everyone who is sent to hell will continue to rebel and sin eternally since, according to generally accepted Christian doctrine, this life on earth is your one and only chance to choose your eternal destination.

-Mike...

Stephen T-B

I�ve asked this question before, without getting an answer, but ever the optimist I am trying again.
It is addressed to those who believe in free will:
What, please, was the last �Free Will� choice you made?
Radorth - can you tell me?
Or The_1st - what about you?

Speaking for myself, I am convinced that internal and external constraints, acting upon each other in complex ways, make me the person I am and act the way I do.
On the other hand, if you can show me that you are able to act in defiance of the constraints which impinge upon you then I must acknowledge that you do, indeed, possess Free Will and that the god you believe in is entitled to punish you for exercising it in ways which contravene his laws.

Knowledge of these laws is, of course, one of the eternal constraints to which you are subject. I wonder what it is that has the power to make you disobey it?
Satan?
If that is the case, you are subject to two external constraints: those of God and those of Satan.
Which one will you heed?
If God, why?
If Satan, why?
If Satan wins, is that because Original Sin inclines you to obey him?
If so, seems to me your Free Will isn�t entirely fee because it is steering you in a certain direction - in short it is steering you towards hell.
How comfortable can you be worshipping an omnipotent god for his benevolence while being aware that he allows that to happen?

If internal constraints rather than Satan or Original Sin inclines you towards disobeying the laws of God, where do they come from?
Or do you claim that a combination of external and internal constraints do NOT determine what you do? That, in fact, nothing does? That you exist in a void?

If so, then you will be able to tell us about the last Free Will choice you made.

Radorth

Don't be inane. God warned them "you will surely die" if they ate of it. (I believe he meant in particular a spiritual death, with the physical following) They well knew who was speaking.

It would be more ingenuous to argue that God KNEW they would fall and therefore bears some or much responsibility. However as I have said, whatever responsibility God might bear, free will was essential to his plan, and he more than took responsibility through the death of Christ, offered free pardon, and a "new nature" to empower those who give their will over to him.

Re: Stephan

Giving my life over to Christ was the first and last perfectly free choice I made. Before that I was influenced by the lusts of the flesh, afterwards the restraints of the Spirit. Nevertheless the Christian, I maintain, has more choices than the non-Christian, and I suppose I have found it easier to disobey God than the demands of the flesh, truth be known. The Christian does learn from his or her mistakes and learns there is no need to cover them up as well.

Rad

mike_decock

Good advice given, but apparently not taken by yourself first. Remember that whole plank, mote, eye deal? How about the "don't call your brother a fool" deal? .

How were they supposed to know that dying was bad (whether spiritual or physical). How could they even know what spiritual death was?

They may have known that Yahweh was speaking to them, but how could they have known that Yahweh was good and the serpent was evil?

God bears all the responsibility. He knew He would curse mankind for being disobedient, even though they didn't know that disobedience was evil.

So He killed Himself to pay the price He placed on our heads? That's all fine and dandy, but even though the price has supposedly been paid, we still have to pay the price ourselves by killing our old nature to achieve a "new nature".

Yeah, it's a free gift, but it'll cost you your life .

-Mike...

Stephen T-B

Hello Rad.
�Giving my life over to Christ was the first and last perfectly free choice I made. Before that I was influenced by the lusts of the flesh, afterwards the restraints of the Spirit. �

As I cycled into town to get something for lunch, I realised that my post, to which you have kindly responded, left something out.
It referred only to external and internal �constraints,� whereas I think it ought to have included our internal impulses - �lusts of the flesh� in your terms.
I also thought you might offer, as an example of a free will choice, your giving your life to Christ.

But that choice didn�t come out of the blue, did it? In the middle of a tennis match, say, or after a particularly good meal.
I mean, why were you even considering the possibility of giving your life over to Christ?
(I�m not suggesting you answer that here, but I am confident that something was going on in your life which made it a pertinent consideration. I would go further and suggest that because it was pertinent, you were already on the road which would lead you to the decision you made.)
What I am saying is that giving your life over to Christ offered you something which you felt in need of.
I dare say you had an idea of the cost. I think you weighed up that probable cost against the expected benefits, and then made the choice which you calculated to be the better for you.

Thing is, would you have been able to make a choice which you calculated to be the worse for you?