Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Not Prince Hamlet · 03-20-2002, 08:01 AM

Yes, given the choice, I would rather have meat from animals that have been humanely treated. I would even pay significantly more for such meat. Can anybody tell me how I can know which meat has been prepared in this way?

I still don't think I've made myself completely clear. It is possible to completely avoid harming animals. It's just not convenient.

Therefore, the only difference I see between a vegetarian and a carnivore is one of degrees. Both commit the same type of 'crimes', but one does it much less than the other. To me, it's like the difference between one-time killer and a serial killer: both have murdered, but one takes it to a greater extreme.

I guess what I'm trying to show is that there is no clear demarcation between the two camps.

Jeff

Queen of Swords · 03-20-2002, 08:09 AM

Even in the two camps, there are vegans, fruitarians, ovo-lacto-vegetarians, and so on. There are people who don't eat red meat, who stick to fish, for example. I don't think the lines are so clear-drawn.

Viti · 03-20-2002, 09:01 AM

Not Prince Hamlet. You can try to find companies that are more humane.

At most supermarkets, there is a brand of eggs called Cage Free eggs...they are more expensive, and they are brown (Americans have something against brown eggs for the most part). I try to buy milk from Sinton's dairy as I have been there.

I buy my meat from a home delivery company called Quality Home Foods. They invite their clients to visit the slaughterhouse and packing plant, and share the names of the farmers and ranchers so you can check them out too. Maybe it's easier to raise animals free range out here in the West as we have more open spaces?? Even in Colorado, you could see the cattle out in the fields, then after slaughter a rep would knock on your door selling fresh beef. I have never had a problem finding non-"factory" farmed meat, but it does take some research and label reading.

DO you have an organic food store where you live? They usually have humanely and organicaly raised meat.

The only thing I cannot find an alternative for is my Mom's Premarin (Hormone replacement). The horses are kept in horrid conditions, but all of the plant derived "alternatives" are not effective that we can find (tried Wild Yams etc, but they aren't absorbed or delivered properly it seems in tests, the hormone levels barely fluctuate)

SallySmith · 03-20-2002, 09:41 AM

If you live somewhere where you could actually visit the farm(s) (unannounced) where the food animals are raised, that would probably be the best bet. Even the "free range" chicken and eggs should be investigated if you are serious about buying humanely. All "free range" means is that the chicken is provided with some access to the outdoors. This could mean they spend 23 hours a day crammed in a crowded building and one hour a day in a crowded muddy yard. There are definitely companies that truly allow their chickens good outdoor access, but there are others that are just capitalizing on consumers' desires to buy humanely. You might also try contacting a national animal rights organization such as the ASPCA or Humane Society of the United States - they might be able to point you towards companies that they endorse in your area (though I have no idea if this is true).

SallySmith · 03-20-2002, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyShea:
<strong>I buy my meat from a home delivery company called Quality Home Foods. They invite their clients to visit the slaughterhouse and packing plant, and share the names of the farmers and ranchers so you can check them out too. Maybe it's easier to raise animals free range out here in the West as we have more open spaces?? Even in Colorado, you could see the cattle out in the fields, then after slaughter a rep would knock on your door selling fresh beef. I have never had a problem finding non-"factory" farmed meat, but it does take some research and label reading.</strong>

From a cursory search, it seems as though most cattle are "free range" for most of their lives and spend the last few months of their lives in a feedlot being fattened up. Thus even a cow that roams most of its life on the range is considered factory-farmed, I guess if the operation is big enough. Most of the problem seems to be inadequate care for the animals while on the range, poor & crowded conditions at the feedlot, and then the inhumane slaughter. I would think the smaller the operation, the better chance there would be that the cattle are treated humanely. I read this at factoryfarming.com if anyone is interested.

Not Prince Hamlet · 03-20-2002, 11:21 AM

LadyShea and Sallysmith,

Thanks for the tips. There actually is a health food store right next to my supermarket, so I'll check them out. A large part of the problem is that I don't buy most meat: most of the time, when I'm eating meat it's at a restaurant and I have no control over which meat is used. Is there any way to check out who the restaurants are buying from?

Jeff

brighid · 03-21-2002, 03:57 AM

In my local grocery store - different from our health food store - I check to see the price difference between cage free eggs and regular eggs. One dozen of the regular eggs was $1.69 p/dozen and the varioud varieties of cage free and vegetarian eggs ranged from $2.99 - 3.99 p/dozen. That is quite a difference and until there is more pressure from the public to make this stuff more readily available most people won't be able to afford to regularly buy the more ethical brands. Egg whites are a staple in our diet and this morning - making what I refer to as power pancakes for 3 people - it requires 18 egg whites!

Brighid

emphryio · 03-21-2002, 08:07 AM

This is getting off the topic of the last page but anyway....

People basically commits actions that will cause theirself happiness. They help other individuals, (cooperate), because they feel that doing so will benefit theirselves in the end. (This isn't neccessarily universally true).

So then, why is one person more concerned about keeping others happy then another person would be?
Multiple answers exist, but one reason has to do with the "time frame" in which they are concerned about their own happiness.

For example why does one person care about some stupid cow and another doesn't?

The one who doesn't may be thinking about their happiness during the next 50 years. They may feel that after that they shall cease to exist. And they know that keeping the cow happy isn't going to increase their own happiness during that time frame.

The vegetarian may be thinking, (possibly in an unexamined way, which may be the same as the meat-eater), in terms of a much larger time frame. As in forever. They may think/hope/basically live as if they plan on existing forever. And they may think the same is true for the cow. Therefore keeping the cow happy could eventually effect their own happiness. (Assuming perfect memory along with existing forever, and actually there sort of the same but that's another story.)

That may sound strange, but I'm thinking it isn't so off the wall actually. I personally find it is impossible to live my life in logical fashion perfectly consious that I shall cease to exist.
I recognize that it is probably what will happen, but I hold out hope. (Not faith for any one of the absurd religions), just hope. And truthfully, I do sort of live my life as if I will exist forever. And using any amount of empathy, I think the same of animals.

I think ultimately "differing time frames of the planned happiness" can explain why people feel differently about morals. It probably isn't the only factor.

You can also go the other direction and look at a "happiness time frame" of one day as versus 50 years. Then you would get a different set of morals. Etc....

SallySmith · 03-21-2002, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Prince Hamlet:
<strong>LadyShea and Sallysmith,

Thanks for the tips. There actually is a health food store right next to my supermarket, so I'll check them out. A large part of the problem is that I don't buy most meat: most of the time, when I'm eating meat it's at a restaurant and I have no control over which meat is used. Is there any way to check out who the restaurants are buying from?</strong>

That's the hard part. Here in Seattle sometimes it will specify on the menu that the chicken is free range, but it's not like that is even close to every restaurant and then of course what about the beef, pork, etc. Maybe you should just ask the restaurant manager who their supplier is, voicing your concern about the treatment of the animals they use. If you live in a fairly large city I'll bet you could find restaurants that buy their meat responsibly. You might also try asking the people at the health food store for recommendations. Or you could just eat wherever and try to help food animals another way, such as writing your congresspeople or giving some money to an organization fighting to improve factory farm conditions. To me even one gesture is better than none at all.

Bree · 03-21-2002, 09:21 AM

NotPrinceHamlet -

Most restaurants don't mind giving you information about the food they serve - origins included. They want to project the "fresh as possible" front to their customers.

Here in Wisconsin it's easy to get "free range" items, since we have a lot of Amish in the surrounding areas. It is a tradition at our UPS to collectively purchase a pig at the beginning of the year ($200) from an Amish farmer and then have it slaughtered at the end of the year (humanely, of course) and divide the meat amongst those who paid for it. Fresh bacon for all - and we can visit the pig from time to time, too

.

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03-20-2002, 08:01 AM	#221
Not Prince Hamlet Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 1,309	Yes, given the choice, I would rather have meat from animals that have been humanely treated. I would even pay significantly more for such meat. Can anybody tell me how I can know which meat has been prepared in this way? I still don't think I've made myself completely clear. It is possible to completely avoid harming animals. It's just not convenient. Therefore, the only difference I see between a vegetarian and a carnivore is one of degrees. Both commit the same type of 'crimes', but one does it much less than the other. To me, it's like the difference between one-time killer and a serial killer: both have murdered, but one takes it to a greater extreme. I guess what I'm trying to show is that there is no clear demarcation between the two camps. Jeff

03-20-2002, 08:09 AM	#222
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Even in the two camps, there are vegans, fruitarians, ovo-lacto-vegetarians, and so on. There are people who don't eat red meat, who stick to fish, for example. I don't think the lines are so clear-drawn.

03-20-2002, 09:01 AM	#223
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Not Prince Hamlet. You can try to find companies that are more humane. At most supermarkets, there is a brand of eggs called Cage Free eggs...they are more expensive, and they are brown (Americans have something against brown eggs for the most part). I try to buy milk from Sinton's dairy as I have been there. I buy my meat from a home delivery company called Quality Home Foods. They invite their clients to visit the slaughterhouse and packing plant, and share the names of the farmers and ranchers so you can check them out too. Maybe it's easier to raise animals free range out here in the West as we have more open spaces?? Even in Colorado, you could see the cattle out in the fields, then after slaughter a rep would knock on your door selling fresh beef. I have never had a problem finding non-"factory" farmed meat, but it does take some research and label reading. DO you have an organic food store where you live? They usually have humanely and organicaly raised meat. The only thing I cannot find an alternative for is my Mom's Premarin (Hormone replacement). The horses are kept in horrid conditions, but all of the plant derived "alternatives" are not effective that we can find (tried Wild Yams etc, but they aren't absorbed or delivered properly it seems in tests, the hormone levels barely fluctuate)

03-20-2002, 09:41 AM	#224
SallySmith Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 263	If you live somewhere where you could actually visit the farm(s) (unannounced) where the food animals are raised, that would probably be the best bet. Even the "free range" chicken and eggs should be investigated if you are serious about buying humanely. All "free range" means is that the chicken is provided with some access to the outdoors. This could mean they spend 23 hours a day crammed in a crowded building and one hour a day in a crowded muddy yard. There are definitely companies that truly allow their chickens good outdoor access, but there are others that are just capitalizing on consumers' desires to buy humanely. You might also try contacting a national animal rights organization such as the ASPCA or Humane Society of the United States - they might be able to point you towards companies that they endorse in your area (though I have no idea if this is true).

03-20-2002, 11:21 AM	#226
Not Prince Hamlet Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 1,309	LadyShea and Sallysmith, Thanks for the tips. There actually is a health food store right next to my supermarket, so I'll check them out. A large part of the problem is that I don't buy most meat: most of the time, when I'm eating meat it's at a restaurant and I have no control over which meat is used. Is there any way to check out who the restaurants are buying from? Jeff

03-21-2002, 03:57 AM	#227
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	In my local grocery store - different from our health food store - I check to see the price difference between cage free eggs and regular eggs. One dozen of the regular eggs was $1.69 p/dozen and the varioud varieties of cage free and vegetarian eggs ranged from $2.99 - 3.99 p/dozen. That is quite a difference and until there is more pressure from the public to make this stuff more readily available most people won't be able to afford to regularly buy the more ethical brands. Egg whites are a staple in our diet and this morning - making what I refer to as power pancakes for 3 people - it requires 18 egg whites! Brighid

03-21-2002, 08:07 AM	#228
emphryio Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: WV Posts: 4,369	This is getting off the topic of the last page but anyway.... People basically commits actions that will cause theirself happiness. They help other individuals, (cooperate), because they feel that doing so will benefit theirselves in the end. (This isn't neccessarily universally true). So then, why is one person more concerned about keeping others happy then another person would be? Multiple answers exist, but one reason has to do with the "time frame" in which they are concerned about their own happiness. For example why does one person care about some stupid cow and another doesn't? The one who doesn't may be thinking about their happiness during the next 50 years. They may feel that after that they shall cease to exist. And they know that keeping the cow happy isn't going to increase their own happiness during that time frame. The vegetarian may be thinking, (possibly in an unexamined way, which may be the same as the meat-eater), in terms of a much larger time frame. As in forever. They may think/hope/basically live as if they plan on existing forever. And they may think the same is true for the cow. Therefore keeping the cow happy could eventually effect their own happiness. (Assuming perfect memory along with existing forever, and actually there sort of the same but that's another story.) That may sound strange, but I'm thinking it isn't so off the wall actually. I personally find it is impossible to live my life in logical fashion perfectly consious that I shall cease to exist. I recognize that it is probably what will happen, but I hold out hope. (Not faith for any one of the absurd religions), just hope. And truthfully, I do sort of live my life as if I will exist forever. And using any amount of empathy, I think the same of animals. I think ultimately "differing time frames of the planned happiness" can explain why people feel differently about morals. It probably isn't the only factor. You can also go the other direction and look at a "happiness time frame" of one day as versus 50 years. Then you would get a different set of morals. Etc....

03-21-2002, 09:21 AM	#230
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	NotPrinceHamlet - Most restaurants don't mind giving you information about the food they serve - origins included. They want to project the "fresh as possible" front to their customers. Here in Wisconsin it's easy to get "free range" items, since we have a lot of Amish in the surrounding areas. It is a tradition at our UPS to collectively purchase a pig at the beginning of the year ($200) from an Amish farmer and then have it slaughtered at the end of the year (humanely, of course) and divide the meat amongst those who paid for it. Fresh bacon for all - and we can visit the pig from time to time, too .

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