Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Corona688 · 11-20-2002, 08:00 PM

Memes are still a highly controversial idea, whereas life is not.

Non-praying Mantis · 11-21-2002, 10:31 AM

Reading from my biology textbook:

All living things exhibit these characteristics:

Quote:

1) Order - all organisms exhibit complex organization
2) Regulation - the environment outside an organism may change markedly, but regulatory mechanisms maintain an organism's internal envrionment within that sustain life
3) Growth and Development - each organism has a pattern of growth and development characteristic to its species
4) Energy Utilization - organisms take in energy and transform it to perform all of life's activities
5) Response to the Environment - all organisms respond to environmental stimuli
6) Reproduction - DNA leads itself to precise replication and all organisms reproduce their own kind
7) Evolution - reproduction underlies the capacity of species to change over time

2000, Campbell, Mitchell, and Reese, Biology: Concepts and Connections

NPM

Non-praying Mantis · 11-21-2002, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corona688:
Memes are still a highly controversial idea, whereas life is not.

I think that even Dawkins would not consider memes to be "alive," but they are self replicating, and that is one of the requirements of living things.

NPM

Godless Dave · 11-21-2002, 10:57 AM

SirenSpeak I think you're confusing "organic" with "alive". Any molecule containing carbon is classified as organic. The presence of carbon apparently does enough interesting things to get itself a whole field of chemistry, organic chemistry. "Alive" is something else, although AFAIK all life forms contain some organic chemicals. Also many non-alive things that contain carbon once were alive - for example the carbon residue on my grill after I cook a steak, or the carbon dioxide emitted by burning fossil fuels. However carbon can also be formed in stars without the presence of anything alive.

DNAunion · 11-21-2002, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Godless Dave: SirenSpeak I think you're confusing "organic" with "alive". Any molecule containing carbon is classified as organic.

DNAunion: Godless Dave, I think you're confusing "organic" with "carbon". Not all molecules containing carbon are classified as organic (take carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide or buckeyballs, for example).

Quote:

Godless Dave: The presence of carbon apparently does enough interesting things to get itself a whole field of chemistry, organic chemistry. "Alive" is something else...

DNAunion: Yes, "alive" is interesting enough to get itself a whole field of chemistry too - biochemistry. (biochemistry is basically the subfield of organic chemistry that deals with life specifically).

Quote:

Godless Dave: ... although AFAIK all life forms contain some organic chemicals.

DNAunion: Yes, in fact, all life forms contain all four of the key organic compounds of living systems: nucleic acids, proteins, carbohydrates, and lipids.

Ms. Siv · 11-21-2002, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Topic: Just what IS life, exactly?

A certain carbon-based complexity level of matter which includes replication.

- S.

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Ms. Siv ]

Starboy · 11-21-2002, 07:12 PM

IMO any definition or way of thinking about life has got to take into account that it is self organizing matter that uses energy. We are currently only aware of life based on self organizing matter using complex carbon molecules but that does not rule out the possiblity of other kinds of life.

Starboy

Chip · 11-21-2002, 07:35 PM

First of all, it takes life to ask the question. It is because we are thinking life that we can consider such. Life is relative to perspective. Entropy can be seen as a disorganizing force, leading to more homogeneity, sameness, and minimal energy states. Via circumstance, organizing situations evolve where instead of many different states of being leading to less, simple states lead to more complexity, more sustained diversity. Thinking life then comes to ask the question and the answer brings recognition of a responsibility. Life is the anti-entropic or, to use a word that I believe was coined by Buckminster Fuller, the syntropic. To fully realize our own lives, we must work to sustain diversity rather than destroy species, ecosystems and ourselves. Otherwise we are no better than rocks.

Just speculating of course.

Regards, Chip

crocodile deathroll · 11-21-2002, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Non-praying Mantis:


I think that even Dawkins would not consider memes to be "alive," but they are self replicating, and that is one of the requirements of living things.

NPM

Memes require living human brains to "self" replicate, so they do not truly "self" replicate do they. It is only the neuronal configution that is replicating isn't it?
This is why I said people a drawing a long bow when they define memes as life.

abe smith · 11-22-2002, 05:28 AM

GOOD for you , Call Me Jay, 20 nov post=== "there;s no such thing as 'life', " et sequ. Anyone interested in the OP qy here can back-up one thread to a previous qy about "LIFE" and read my diatribe there....
Abe

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11-20-2002, 08:00 PM	#11
Corona688 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Hiding from Julian ;) Posts: 5,368	Memes are still a highly controversial idea, whereas life is not.

11-21-2002, 10:57 AM	#14
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	SirenSpeak I think you're confusing "organic" with "alive". Any molecule containing carbon is classified as organic. The presence of carbon apparently does enough interesting things to get itself a whole field of chemistry, organic chemistry. "Alive" is something else, although AFAIK all life forms contain some organic chemicals. Also many non-alive things that contain carbon once were alive - for example the carbon residue on my grill after I cook a steak, or the carbon dioxide emitted by burning fossil fuels. However carbon can also be formed in stars without the presence of anything alive.

11-21-2002, 07:12 PM	#17
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	IMO any definition or way of thinking about life has got to take into account that it is self organizing matter that uses energy. We are currently only aware of life based on self organizing matter using complex carbon molecules but that does not rule out the possiblity of other kinds of life. Starboy

11-21-2002, 07:35 PM	#18
Chip Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 382	First of all, it takes life to ask the question. It is because we are thinking life that we can consider such. Life is relative to perspective. Entropy can be seen as a disorganizing force, leading to more homogeneity, sameness, and minimal energy states. Via circumstance, organizing situations evolve where instead of many different states of being leading to less, simple states lead to more complexity, more sustained diversity. Thinking life then comes to ask the question and the answer brings recognition of a responsibility. Life is the anti-entropic or, to use a word that I believe was coined by Buckminster Fuller, the syntropic. To fully realize our own lives, we must work to sustain diversity rather than destroy species, ecosystems and ourselves. Otherwise we are no better than rocks. Just speculating of course. Regards, Chip

11-22-2002, 05:28 AM	#20
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	GOOD for you , Call Me Jay, 20 nov post=== "there;s no such thing as 'life', " et sequ. Anyone interested in the OP qy here can back-up one thread to a previous qy about "LIFE" and read my diatribe there.... Abe

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