Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RogerLeeCooke · 08-13-2002, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xeren:
Hi, i was wondering if anyone could help me with this:

I am an atheist, have been for maybe 6 years now, but i still have Christian friends who think i am being irrational in my atheism in light of historical "proof" of Jesus's resurrection and so on.

Could anyone help me tackle a couple of common arguments my apologist friends bing to the table? Namely:

The time in between the writing of the gospels and the death of Jesus was too short for legends to arise.

He appeared to 500 people after his resurrection!

Why would the Apostles spread the word of the resurrection if it it was a lie? No one would die for something they knew was false

Thanks for any help. I'm sure these questions have been easily answered before on this forum, so if you have a link to another discussion, i would appreciate that too!

You've been hit with John Ankerberg's standard gallimaufry of argumentative canons. In fact these same principles would be evidence for Mormonism. The book of Mormon was written during the lifetime of the first Mormons. There were plenty of people who took solemn oaths to having seen the gold tablets that Joseph Smith claimed were taken back up into heaven. Plenty of them were willing to die for this cause, etc. If Mormonism doesn't do it, try Christian Science, or whatever. They are all based on the same (lack of) evidence.

RogerLeeCooke · 08-13-2002, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xeren:
King Arthur,

This 500 man thing deserves a new post.

But no, someone wouldn't necessarily have blown the whistle on a lie like that, that is your assumption.

Let's assume even that somebody DID blow the whistle. No doubt the Church fathers and the monks would have been assiduous in preserving documents with this opposing point of view, right?

Or is there some canon that guarantees that all points of view are preserved in ancient documents? How many people actually saw Paul's writings, after all? How many of them were non-Christians?

This whole line of argument smacks of yet another stupid principle used by Ankerberg (and MacDowell, as others on this thread have noted): "You can't fool the present generation." This in spite of the numerous examples in this thread, which I could supplement with Uri Geller, Kreskin, dowsers of all varieties, etc., all people who get very wealthy fooling the present generation.

RogerLeeCooke · 08-13-2002, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by King Arthur:
 I don't have any personal experience that tells me that someone can be resurrected from death, but that's the problem. I only know what I know and have experienced. I can't say definitely that no one has ever been raised from the dead. Doesn't seem likely, but I can't deny it and call it a total lie. Why can you? Just because your own limited life experience tells you so?

Is there *nothing* you reject out of hand? Do you spend your time seriously considering the claims phoned in to the Art Bell show? I'm with Vorkosigan on this one. Whether Paul was lying or was himself deceived, I don't know, but by all the accumulated experience of the human race, what he was saying was a lie. In the background of anything I say lies the proviso "I could be mistaken," but if I had to say that every time and imply (falsely) that I have some real smidgen of doubt in my mind, I might as well give up making any judgments at all. I see nothing wrong with the description "lie" for such a claim.

lcb · 08-13-2002, 09:14 PM

Jesus said to feed the hungry, heal the sick, comfort widows and orphans and defend the oppressed.....what a con artist he was! the early christians too! vows of chastity and poverty and selling one's possessions to feed the hungry and heal the sick and then suffering the brutal orthodox jewish inquisition followed by the horrific Roman inquisition...they sure pulled one over on all of us! neat hat trick!

Defiant Heretic · 08-13-2002, 09:27 PM

As for the original question, the following link may be helpful
<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/resurrection/index.shtml" target="_blank">Why I Don't Buy the Resurrection Story</a>

There has also been the question of the identity of King Arthur.

Quote:

Posted by Cretinist:
Does anyone still think King Arthur is actually a non-theist?

<a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000518" target="_blank">This thread</a> explains it

lcb · 08-13-2002, 09:50 PM

I buy it.

Skeptical · 08-14-2002, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lcb:
I buy it.

Based on?

godfry n. glad · 08-14-2002, 12:09 PM

lcb posted the following:

Quote:

I buy it.

Somehow, I find this assertion to be neither surprising nor enligthening. Is there some reason I should care?

godfry n. glad

Orestes · 08-14-2002, 01:00 PM

Quote:

then suffering the brutal orthodox jewish inquisition followed by the horrific Roman inquisition...they sure pulled one over on all of us! neat hat trick!

What horrific Roman inquisition? You mean the few thousand (if that) that were executed by Nero? Heh, that's nothing compared to the brutality, bloodshed, and destruction that the Christian cultists would unleash upon the world the instant they came to power.

lcb · 08-14-2002, 02:29 PM

you say Nero is the only one who persecuted Christians???? does your mama know you are playing on the internet?

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08-13-2002, 09:14 PM	#94
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	Jesus said to feed the hungry, heal the sick, comfort widows and orphans and defend the oppressed.....what a con artist he was! the early christians too! vows of chastity and poverty and selling one's possessions to feed the hungry and heal the sick and then suffering the brutal orthodox jewish inquisition followed by the horrific Roman inquisition...they sure pulled one over on all of us! neat hat trick!

08-13-2002, 09:50 PM	#96
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	I buy it.

08-14-2002, 02:29 PM	#100
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	you say Nero is the only one who persecuted Christians???? does your mama know you are playing on the internet?

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