hastalavista2u

Yes,and I can see why American missionaries would go to those places.
Because those people in poor countries are much more open that those in modern cultures.
There are no modern conveniences and space-age technology to spoil the masses.
It seems that the truly humble Christians will be found in such places.

All due to the sacrifices of those higher class Christians who understand the evils of capitalism,and how the 'lost' will remain that way in such a system.
And thus go to third world places that haven't yet seen the full influx of corrupt 'Americanism'.
I'm beginning to think that 'TRUE' revival can never take place in a country like ours?

As for the original topic heading,perhaps it should be more like...'God put me in America so I would go to Hell?'
And maybe it is true that many so-called 'believers' in America were indoctrinated from an early age.
Or either were in such a bad shape they didn't have any choice but to join the ranks?
How else could you explain the miracle of so many of us in such a corrupt society??
Beats the Hell(excuse pun) out of me...

Synaesthesia

Although the fact that western people can use science to better their lives rather than waiting for miracles, I rather like to think that it's folks like those here on infidels that contribute to the overall godlessness of the west.

We do our best.

doodad

I see merit in what you say, and some the Judaists apparently have the same view of dying and of the afterlife. I read something about certain movements of Jews viewing Heaven as not a place but as a state of affairs here on earth. It seems Heaven to them would be to have security in their homes and possessions. Compare that to the countles years of fending off marauding armies and enemies in the OT. Yeah, it's a little shaky, but not bad for a thiest. I think that kind of Heaven is achievable in principle.

doodad

Perhaps America is religious because there is no official state religion. Therefore no one sect can be viewed as dominant and oppressive. Somehow Americans came to believe that religion is in their camp (the voice of freedom) and that government is not. I think they are confusing spiritual freedom with political freedom, but it all happened that way movin' west.

spishack

Philosoft wrote Of course its possible for us to be mistaken in a belief, however I would have to state that if you believe you understand something that is wrong than you truly do not understand it. I think the better question is how and can we know what truth is.
Whatever is the objective ultimate value by default deserves the glory.

My point here is that when we compare ourselves to other humans its easy to compare because we are all of the same finite essence. If we were to be compared to an infinite essence than we would not be able to compare ourselves at all. We would have to immediately give Him praise. I hope that cleared it up although I am not sure that it did.

Answerer

But after the convertion, those people are no longer open, indeed, they are becoming more and more narrow-minded as each day passed. To make things worse, most of them began to isolate themselves from the masses except during the time where they preach to non-believers or criticize some scientifical discovery. So, who 'spoil' the masses? I think the answer is obvious.

Tercel

Hey again Kenny,

Glad you enjoyed the article. I think I have to agree with you that the author goes too far in condemning the idea of judgement. I think CS Lewis strikes a much better balance in his thoughts on the subject in The Great Divorce.

I strongly approve of author's belief that spiritual growth including salvation is possible after death, a belief which appears to be well established in Eastern theology as far as I can tell: I am not sure I understand why the idea finds so little acceptance within the conservative Western churches of today.

Hmmm... I think I would beg to differ there. Certainly I would agree that sin afflicts the human heart and that we are stubborn and rebellious and in need of God's grace to change. However, I would say that God gives that grace to all and guides us all to the point where we can freely choose what to make of ourselves. With his guidance and grace every step of the way, yes. But I believe it is our doing too. I believe we are responsible for what we make of ourselves, and as I understand it responsibility can only be had by someone who has power, and as I understand power if we had some form of control and free choice over what we become. Thus I think Calvinism goes too far in it's dim view of what power we have in the matter and it's too high view of God's control.

Thank you. -Not that I'm entirely sure I believe you since as far as I can tell you know more than me about most everything.

And yet non-Calvinists do not say that it was due to any special merit or humility in you. I would say that God's grace is at work in everybody's life and your positive reponse to him was a choice on your part, not because you are better than anyone else nor because you were humbler than anyone else but because that's simply what you chose to do and allow God to make of you.
If you say that it was due to God's choice alone, then it seems that either God's choice is arbitrary (since it does not depend on anything to do with you) or we are back to the unknown higher purposes hypothesis (which while all well and good I'd prefer not to use given what I see as a perfectly good explanation above)

Nice talking to you anyway. It's not that often I get to talk to other Christians on these boards and it makes a very pleasant change.
Good luck for your quarter finals! Speaking of which, I got my year's (well 2nd semester plus 1 full year course, since I already knew my 1st semester grades) results back yesterday -not quite what I'd hoped unfortunately- but at least there were no B's this year...


God Bless.

Tercel

It's good that religion's not the only think that doesn't have to be coherent, 'cos otherwise your post would be struck off the list.

Care to actually explain what the hell (please excuse the bad pun which I didn't actually notice 'till after I posted... ) you're talking about? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: Tercel ]</p>

Synaesthesia

The point is that the consequences are far out of step with our capacity to anticipate them. The only ones who are remotely aware of them (you) must necessarily base their position on a leap of faith. I do not thus acknowledge that you have knowledge of salvation and the other thing (damnation or unsalvation, depending on how you feel about hitler.).

Nobody, therefore, is making an informed choice christians included. Free will has no basis in reality and so is yet another pseudo solution - the only sort God theory has to offer.

Philosoft

I'm talking about things like God's attributes, or what heaven is like. If these things are not objectively knowable, how do you know you believe something that even resembles the truth?

<strong> You can phrase this as many ways as you want, but you still don't have value without a valuer. Nothing has value simply by virtue of its existence.

<strong> Again, how do we make the comparison? Do we know an infinte essence when we see one? Does it look bigger than a regular essence? What if it was just a really big essense, would we be able to tell the difference?