Stephen T-B

I think you’ve provided your own answer:

“ I have never heard a thoughtful and practical answer to this question” (...of how God would practically prevent evil and allow free will...) “because, I think, there is none.”

Some atheists think it is up to the Christians tto address this question. Afrter all, why should a Loving God permit evil AND Free Will AND damnation?They think the three things simply don’t sit well together, but this isn’t their difficulty, since they consider god (loving or otherwise) to be fictitious; and while you’ve done your very best to provide an explanation I have to say that it’s not persuaded very many of us down here.

(You could ask: “How would an atheist travel from the States to Europe without swimming, without going in a boat and without flying?”

Answer: An atheist wouldn’t.)

Here’s my answer to your question:
A loving, all-powerful, all-knowing god which (for unexplained reasons) requires the love, voluntarily given, of a creature which has resulted from his Creation would be obliged to offer it free will (in order that it might give or withhold its love.)
It would therefore appear to each individual at the age, say, of 18 and say “I am here to receive your love which you can express by spending a few minutes every day in a love-filled meditation. The consequence of not doing this is that you won’t experience my love, and you’ll end up a discontented whinger who no-one will like very much. The choice, pal, is yours.”

End of story.

Not well thought-out? OK, but I don’t see that I’m obliged to think it out very well, considering the fact that I’m an atheist

long winded fool

Free will is not contingent upon evil; it is contingent on the possibility, or accessibility of evil. The choice between good and bad necessarily implies that bad must exist, or at least must be able to exist. It is possible to always only choose A, but it is necessary to be able to choose not-A at any given time if free will exists. If evil (not-A) did not exist and couldn't exist because God is "loving," then free will couldn't exist. ("You have the freedom to choose anything, so long as anything is A.") You're right, the absence of evil is not a contradiction to free will. The absence of the possibility of evil is. God cannot eliminate evil. Humans can. God is still omnipotent and humans aren't because humans were created with the ability to make the choice to abandon good and choose not-good. God could take away this choice, but there's no logical proof that this is more a more loving thing to do than allowing this choice. If I were an omnipotent father, I could forbid my kids to do anything I don't want them to do my whole life. Or I could allow them to experience life for themselves and give them advice on what is "good," while not physically preventing them from choosing bad. Which seems more loving? Which results in a healthy human being and which results in a mindless drone?

Llyricist

and now we see the false dichotomy generator

That is; your ONLY two choices are good or evil.... excuse me but there are a myriad of choices that could fall under the category "NOT evil" even choices that are neither good NOR evil. You could have plenty of free will without having the category of "evil" to choose from.

This doesn't even address the problem of non human instigated evil such as earthquakes, tornadoes...ya know..."acts of God" ?

Dr Rick

That's just another series of unsubstantiated assertions; substitute the word flying everywhere you use the word evil or bad, and it would make just as much (non)sense.

An omnipotent god that cannot do something is a contradiction...

...as is an all-loving god doing somethng unloving.

False dichotomy (as Llyricist observed) and inherently contradictory, as well. An omnipotent being could prevent bad and still have a resulting healthy human being.

Radorth

We've given our paradigm, gleaned from considerable thought. Whether you disagree with it is irrelevant. We can disagree about how a good God might operate, but you are refusing even to provide a model for us to argue with. Until yo do, I will presume that is because you have failed to think it through, or to see that if God operated much differently, he would seem even more illogical, controlling and arbitrary than he is.

It's a simple, fair and sincere question which I would highly recommend you answer. I for one would find a good answer to it more compelling and thought provoking than all your other naysaying put together.

Rad

Radorth

I've already proven in another thread that natural disasters are not evidence that a good God cannot exist. I asked who would choose not to be born and to live here if told by God that parts of earth were dangerous. No one said they would not. I suspect nobody would make a peep.

Let us say that God is not "omnimax" (a vague term really) but only powerful enough to create life on an earth with certain "faults." What if he searched the entire universe, and earth was the most inhabitable? What would you guys tell him? "Well OK, I'll live there, but you are a bad God for making an earth with bad weather and earthquake faults."

Ridiculous, especially when people choose to rebuild in flood plains and over earthquake faults. The major problems with the world are caused by human stubbornness, stupidity, selfishness, greed, disobedience, irresponsible parents and overpopulation, which show no signs at all of going away.

At least not until free will is removed altogether, which I suspect will set off a firestorm of atheist bitching, the likes of which the world has never seen.

Now why would I think that?

Rad

Llyricist

I suspect noone answered because the question doesn't make any sense. How can one choose where to be born? Besides, there is NOWHERE on the earth immune from "acts of God", some are more prone to certain types of disasters than others, but everywhere is prone to SOME type. Besides, an Omnimax god would not, and could not present such a choice for the reasons the PoE spells out.
So you are saying that God is nothing more than an advanced alien species?? LOL If you haven't noticed, no one is using the PoE against a merely powerful god, just the ALL powerful Christian God.

The PoE ONLY eliminates ONE of the Omni's; God could be Omnipotent and Omniscient but NOT omnibenevolent, or Omnibenevolent and Omniscient but NOT Omnipotent.... and the PoE is no problem, so your less than Omnimax god is of COURSE immune from the PoE.

Stephen T-B

I'd really like to see some definitions of Evil.

I mean, is not going to church on Sunday evil?

Eating pork?

Having an abortion?

Bearing false witness against your neighbour?

Setting up a system and implementing it, which can kill 6,000,000 men, women and children?

Radorth

I'm not saying they were silent, which is your interpretation. They understood the question perfectly, and a few engaged in a discussion. Most of them realized they would happily live in this beautiful place, and take their chances.

No, I'm just trying to get the discussion off the free will/ evil dillemma where it so often gets stuck.

Since you guys can't even be bothered to present a modus operandi which you think a good God would use, I'll assume you really hadn't thought about it. You know, where I work, bitching is completely, ignored unless you have a better plan, as it should be.

Rad

scombrid

And in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...

Well now you've abandonned your doctrine just for the sake of argument. If you're willing to to that then you can "hypothetical situation" your way out of any argument without ever addressing the true nature of god as presented in the Bible. I'm guessing that this is because you'd have to acknowledge that if God did control the weather and natural phenomena and uses them for discipline (sloppy discipline I might add since there's always lots of collateral damage) then he mustn't be as nice and loving as you insist. So now you've postulated a limited god that simply searched the universe for a habitable planet and did the best he could. I might could get chummy with that God especially if he'd be frank with me about it. Instead I've never met him and must rely on the accounts of a vengeful prick presented in the Bible.

Yeah, that Baptist preacher was being a real dumbass when a tree fell on his car and killed him and his family on a clear, calm night. He should've seen that coming. And people caught in the great charleston earthquake should've seen that one coming.
quake