Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Corwin · 11-27-2002, 03:23 PM

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Go back and read the OP.

Let's see... Randi... (while I respect the man... I have no particular illusions about him) apparently did a 'study' of outdated and irrelevant homeopathic techniques. And they didn't work.

Big shock. Really. I'm stunned.

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There was a study, you may have read it in the first post... no, wait, I can't be bothered.

Actually there is no study cited in the first post. There's a recounting of a sideshow. Nothing new here.

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You didn't answer me about the dilution thing. I'm really, genuinely surprised about that. Seriously. I'm amazed.

There's nothing to answer. Dilution ITSELF isn't the problem. The level of dilution Rand used, (and that you're claiming is still mainstream) is the issue.

But then your aspirin is 100% pure, right? No fillers... no bulk... no buffers... just pure aspirin.

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I'll ignore you now, but if you post any more trolling bullshit then I won't hesitate to report you to a moderator. You might think you're an accomplished attention seeker because of your high post count, but let me tell you - you're just too obvious by half.

Oh golly gee.... thank you ever so much for being so gracious.... please don't hurt me!!!!!

Call in the moderators? Go right ahead. Be my guest. Honestly.

If this is your idea of a troll... you really ARE a newbie when it comes to the net.

Doubting Didymus · 11-27-2002, 03:26 PM

Corwin? Are you feeling okay?

Corwin · 11-27-2002, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus:
Corwin? Are you feeling okay?

I'm fine... why do you ask?

Doubting Didymus · 11-27-2002, 03:40 PM

You are getting terribly wound up, with not an awful lot of provocation. That's all.

tronvillain · 11-27-2002, 03:40 PM

Corwin, perhaps you would care to link to some proponents of homeopathy who deny the power of dilution, one of the two basic principles of homeopathy?

Check out this article I found off of <a href="http://www.homeopathy.com/" target="_blank">homeopathy.com</a>: <a href="http://www.heilkunst.com/dose.html" target="_blank">Dose and Potency</a>

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57.5 SUMMARY OF PRINCIPLES REGARDING DOSE AND POTENCY
Dr. Hahnemann, in all of his writings, provided the fruits of his experience with the development of dose and potency. The following basic principles are derived from a study of these writings (see Volume I, Section A, Chapter 11: Historical Development of Dose and Potency).

The more acute the disease, the smaller the dose required (the higher the potency), but the greater the frequency of application.
The liquid dose is stronger than the dry dose (single globule taken directly in the mouth).
The more sensitive (arousable) and weak the patient (lower vitality), the smaller the dose (in quantitative terms � e.g., a part of a drop � one globule � instead of a drop).
The more the dose is repeated, the more it must be diluted (that is, in a greater quantity of liquid).
A repeated dose requires that the degree of dynamization of each subsequent dose be altered slightly.
The higher the degree of dilution and/or succussion, the more deeply the medicine penetrates into the Living Power of the patient.
The more protracted the disease, the longer the counter-action to restore balance (homeostasis � a dynamic balance of health).
The determination of the optimal dose must be done in the living context of each case of disease and involves the use of the physician's kennen, or supersensible knowing. It can not be done by formulas, although these can provide a degree of guidance.

You claim that people do not believe this. I agree that people who do not believe in homeopathy do not believe this, but show me the people who do believe in homeopathy who do not believe this!

Now, to go back to one of your early claims:

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Homeopathy is based on the idea that a condition can be treated with something that causes the same symptoms. An example (from modern medicine... gee... go fig...) would be? Allergy treatments. Expose someone to their allergen or something very similar to their allergen.... and you key the immune system to build up a resistance to it. Vaccines operate on essentially the same premise.

The other basic principle of homeopathy is "like cures like", or as you say "a condition can be treated with something that causes the same symptoms." This is nothing like allergy treatments or vaccines - you do not attempt to treat allergies or viral infections with similar antigens! There is a known mechanism at work in both cases, and it is not "like cures like." You simply cannot use these as examples to support the principle.

Corwin · 11-27-2002, 03:41 PM

Wound up?

Doubting Didymus · 11-27-2002, 03:42 PM

Actually, fine, you could probably point to plenty of provocation, and the provokers in turn could point to provocation form you. This thread is spiralling out of the realm of the rational faster than you can say 'amos'.

LordSnooty · 11-27-2002, 03:44 PM

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Originally posted by Corwin:

There's nothing to answer. Dilution ITSELF isn't the problem. The level of dilution Rand used, (and that you're claiming is still mainstream) is the issue.

But then your aspirin is 100% pure, right? No fillers... no bulk... no buffers... just pure aspirin.

Please read the evidence I provided, which showed quite clearly that Randi used a correct dilution. The homeopaths and their followers at least have the grace to admit that the test was correct in its ambitions, they merely wonder whether the tests were 'spoiled' in some way. NOT ONE homeopathic supporter has claimed that the dilution used was inappropriate. PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS.

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Call in the moderators? Go right ahead. Be my guest. Honestly.

If this is your idea of a troll... you really ARE a newbie when it comes to the net.

Actually, I've written professionally about the Internet since 1996. I don't think I qualify as a newbie.

However, my experience has shown me that some people will do anything for attention. You make post after post, putting forth ideas you know to be false (for instance, that the dilution that Randi used was no longer used). You ignore all of the evidence presented to you, and instead choose to paint those disagreeing with you as closed minded, conservative, or agents of the evil medical profession.

You look more or less exactly like a theist who's just come here to stir up trouble. You ignore the facts and act in an arrogant and irritating way - the only reasonable conclusion is that you're trolling. If you would actually accept the evidence - or at least discuss it, I would be far more cautious in using the term 'troll'.

Paul

LordSnooty · 11-27-2002, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus:
Actually, fine, you could probably point to plenty of provocation, and the provokers in turn could point to provocation form you. This thread is spiralling out of the realm of the rational faster than you can say 'amos'.

I apologise if I have been provocative, but it's naturally irritating when people fail to actually read evidence provided.

Corwin has been repeating the same tired argument from the start - even though evidence of his mistaken ideas has been presented. He refuses even to discuss it. That and his insulting 'you are all closed-minded idiots that refuse to look outside of your box' attitude are enough to make anyone 'provocative'.

Paul

Corwin · 11-27-2002, 03:59 PM

But of course 'idiot troll' isn't provokative at all.... nah.

Grow up.

Tron... you might find this interesting.

<a href="http://www.ihr.com/homeopat/research.html" target="_blank">Something from 1991.... which is a lot more recent than 1822....</a>

The page you posted is an historical overview. Not recent material at all. These days it's not uncommon for medicines to be diluted to 1:100 or 1:1000. (Conventional medicines? Frequently only have a potency of 10-15%. The rest is filler. It makes the drug easier to administer and makes it less of a shock to the body.)

By the way tron... what exactly is smallpox vaccine made from again?

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11-27-2002, 03:26 PM	#32
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	Corwin? Are you feeling okay?

11-27-2002, 03:40 PM	#34
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	You are getting terribly wound up, with not an awful lot of provocation. That's all.

11-27-2002, 03:41 PM	#36
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Wound up?

11-27-2002, 03:42 PM	#37
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	Actually, fine, you could probably point to plenty of provocation, and the provokers in turn could point to provocation form you. This thread is spiralling out of the realm of the rational faster than you can say 'amos'.

11-27-2002, 03:59 PM	#40
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	But of course 'idiot troll' isn't provokative at all.... nah. Grow up. Tron... you might find this interesting. <a href="http://www.ihr.com/homeopat/research.html" target="_blank">Something from 1991.... which is a lot more recent than 1822....</a> The page you posted is an historical overview. Not recent material at all. These days it's not uncommon for medicines to be diluted to 1:100 or 1:1000. (Conventional medicines? Frequently only have a potency of 10-15%. The rest is filler. It makes the drug easier to administer and makes it less of a shock to the body.) By the way tron... what exactly is smallpox vaccine made from again?

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