Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Layman · 02-12-2003, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Oh Layman, Where Art Thou?

I typed up that long except from Steve Mason, and asked if you knew of any scholar who had commented on his idea that Luke used Josephus since its publication. No response so far.

I have been going over your original 56 points, and am working on a response, but I may not be able to post it until next week.

You know what Toto?

I have made so secret what little regard I hold for your abilities and knowledge in this area, but I have many times extended to your the courtesy of taking all the time you need to develop your arguments. When you tell me you are going to be busy or won't be able to respond, I tell you to take all the time you need.

Might you extend me the same courtesy? Despite your animus? These threads are not going anywhere. My main point in this thread was to establish correlation between the epistles and Acts. Most you conceded that point off the bat. Yet raised other issues unrelated to that point.

I will get to your arguments when I get to them.

Toto · 02-12-2003, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman
You know what Toto?

I have made [n]o secret what little regard I hold for your abilities and knowledge in this area, but I have many times extended to your the courtesy of taking all the time you need to develop your arguments. When you tell me you are going to be busy or won't be able to respond, I tell you to take all the time you need.

Might you extend me the same courtesy? Despite your animus? These threads are not going anywhere. My main point in this thread was to establish correlation between the epistles and Acts. Most you conceded that point off the bat. Yet raised other issues unrelated to that point.

I will get to your arguments when I get to them.

So you got a little roughed up when you went up against the professionals on XTalk, and you're taking it out on poor old Toto.

No problem, dude.

Take your time

Layman · 02-12-2003, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
So you got a little roughed up when you went up against the professionals on XTalk, and you're taking it out on poor old Toto.

No problem, dude.

Take your time

Right. Poor Toto. I hardly think Robbins "roughed" me up. In fact, he admitted he has failed to make any substantive response to any of his critics. Instead, he responds to a small summary of an argument made by an obvious amateur.

Hardly compelling stuff too. Though when I respond I'll try and keep my "negative energy" from affecting his work.

Toto · 02-12-2003, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman
. . . In fact, he admitted he has failed to make any substantive response to any of his critics. Instead, he responds to a small summary of an argument made by an obvious amateur.

. . .

What a *lawyerly* response.

What he said was:

Quote:

I have not responded systematically to the studies to which [Layman] refers, since I have wanted to see if the field of early Christian studies has substantive resources in its modes of interpretation to bring into prominence the remarkable socio-rhetorical dynamics of early Christian sea voyages (and other accounts) that make them powerful Christian texts. It has been informative to see the sustained exclusionary strategies that have been used to defend the perspective of the sea voyages in Acts as authentic eye-witness accounts. The result of these strategies has been to turn readers' attention away from the truly remarkable qualities of this early Christian discourse in the cause of what claims to be "the truth" about Luke and the "historical accuracy" of the Acts of the Apostles. This means, above all, that this early Christian discourse is doing its work in the manner of a most powerful ideology, namely the discourse hides its power from the people whom it entices into its worldview. This means that the Acts of the Apostles is good literature.

In other words, he has been giving the literalists all the rope they need, while he sits back and laughs at their pathetic efforts to shore up their ideological beliefs.

Of course he pegged you as an amateur. Professional scholars read the works that they are criticising before they go out on a limb like you did with your inflammatory language.

Layman · 02-12-2003, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
In other words, he has been giving the literalists all the rope they need, while he sits back and laughs at their pathetic efforts to shore up their ideological beliefs.

You sure read a lot into a little.

Quote:

Of course he pegged you as an amateur.

Not exactly a brilliant achievement, since I put "Esq." after my name and have no university affiliation.

Quote:

Professional scholars read the works that they are criticising before they go out on a limb like you did with your inflammatory language.

Actually, I thought Professional scholars dealt with substantive critiques of their position by responding to them. Not by ignoring them while laughing at their 'exclusionary' tendencies.

Toto · 02-12-2003, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman

Actually, I thought Professional scholars dealt with substantive critiques of their position by responding to them. Not by ignoring them while laughing at their 'exclusionary' tendencies.

Maybe that's a comment on how "substantive" he thought the critiques were.

Layman · 02-12-2003, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Maybe that's a comment on how "substantive" he thought the critiques were.

Given the credentials of those behind the critiques and the persuasive effect they have had, I suspect he would take advantage of them if he thought they were so easily dealth with. He has not. Rather, he has chosen to respond to a short summary by an obvious amatuer.

Layman · 02-20-2003, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
As a side note, it is possible that Paul's letters and the book of Acts were both 2nd century fabrications from two competing camps of Christians. This view is expounded in more detail at The Cosmic Context, by Dr. Michael Conley. But I don't want to go into that here.

Toto, thank you for the link.

I do have a question about Dr. Conley, however; what did he get his doctrate in?

His resume indicates that he got his PhD at the US Army Special Warfare School at Oberammergau, Bavaria.

Toto · 02-20-2003, 07:47 PM

I don't know any more about Conley than is on his web site. I assume that if the field were relevant, he would list it, and would be publishing professionally, so I assume he is an interested amateur as far as Biblical history goes. His work has come up on the Jesus Mysteries list, and he has done some translation. (I would not be surprized if his field were languages. The US Army did a lot of language teaching in those days.)

He translated this on Marcion:

The first edition of the Paulina by Couchoud

and wrote this:

Marcion's Place in Early Christianity

I put that link in to indicate the wide range of opinions on the matter only.

Layman · 02-20-2003, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
I don't know any more about Conley than is on his web site. I assume that if the field were relevant, he would list it, and would be publishing professionally, so I assume he is an interested amateur as far as Biblical history goes. His work has come up on the Jesus Mysteries list, and he has done some translation. (I would not be surprized if his field were languages. The US Army did a lot of language teaching in those days.)

He translated this on Marcion:

The first edition of the Paulina by Couchoud

and wrote this:

Marcion's Place in Early Christianity

I put that link in to indicate the wide range of opinions on the matter only.

Like Vork said, you can probably find someone to say anything.

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02-20-2003, 07:47 PM	#89
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I don't know any more about Conley than is on his web site. I assume that if the field were relevant, he would list it, and would be publishing professionally, so I assume he is an interested amateur as far as Biblical history goes. His work has come up on the Jesus Mysteries list, and he has done some translation. (I would not be surprized if his field were languages. The US Army did a lot of language teaching in those days.) He translated this on Marcion: The first edition of the Paulina by Couchoud and wrote this: Marcion's Place in Early Christianity I put that link in to indicate the wide range of opinions on the matter only.

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