Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Smitty13 · 07-26-2002, 04:15 PM

Please show an example of something in this physical universe that "began to exist" - and was not just a changing of one thing into another.[/QB][/QUOTE]

According to the Big Bang, the universe itself began to exist.

Smitty13 · 07-26-2002, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Devilnaut:
<strong>A singularity is not equivalent to nothing in any way that i'm aware of. The closest it comes to being nothing is that it occupies an infinitesimally small space, which is why its density is infinitely large.</strong>

In my original statement I used infinite mass rather than density. I meant to say "Infinite density" is nothing, because if it had any mass it would be something. Sorry for the mix up.

Smitty13 · 07-26-2002, 04:24 PM

Like I said, how can "nothing" have a definition that includes qualities such as "infinite density", or any quality for that matter? "Nothing" has no qualities or quantities. Nothing is...well...nothing.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Now we are getting on the same page. The universe came into being out of nothing!

Mageth · 07-26-2002, 04:39 PM

In my original statement I used infinite mass rather than density. I meant to say "Infinite density" is nothing, because if it had any mass it would be something. Sorry for the mix up.

Physics definition of density: The mass per unit volume of a substance.

Mageth · 07-26-2002, 04:44 PM

Now we are getting on the same page. The universe came into being out of nothing!

According to one embodiment of Big Bang cosmology, the universe "came into being" out of a singularity. A quantum fluctuation created the singularity. As I stated, quantum fluctuations are not causal events that occur in time. So "first cause" is not applicable.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 07-26-2002, 04:49 PM

Devilnaut

Perhaps you should ask yourself: "Is there any rational reason to think that the universe 'never began'?"

All available evidence suggests otherwise.

Thats why THIS line of reasoning fails miserably to refute the First Cause argument. It eventually makes a claim 'the universe never began' which can be easily verified as false given mans current knowledge of the cosmos.

SOMMS

Smitty13 · 07-26-2002, 04:50 PM

Physics definition of density: The mass per unit volume of a substance.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Every substance has a designated amount of mass. If something is infinitely dense, it does not have a designated amount of mass, therefore it is equivilent to nothing because if it had any mass it would be something. This comes out of the mathematical impossibility of an actual infinity. There can be a potential infinity, but an actual one is absurd.

Smitty13 · 07-26-2002, 04:54 PM

According to one embodiment of Big Bang cosmology, the universe "came into being" out of a singularity. A quantum fluctuation created the singularity. As I stated, quantum fluctuations are not causal events that occur in time. So "first cause" is not applicable.[/QB][/QUOTE]

So are you saying the universe had a beginning or not?

Mageth · 07-26-2002, 05:01 PM

At a singularity (e.g. the center of a black hole) spacetime has infinite curvature and matter is crushed to infinite density under the pull of infinite gravity. Space and time don't exist as we know them. The laws of physics break down, so it's not possible to envision something with infinite density and zero volume.

That doesn't mean it's "nothing."

Devilnaut · 07-26-2002, 05:01 PM

Smitty, the fact that something is infinitely dense says nothing of its mass. It can have a mass of 1kg, or that of ten million suns. The only information that you get from 'infinitely dense' is that the object is infinitesimally small.

SOMMS:

As it stands there are a number of probable possibilities on how the Universe came to be. None of these involve god or the supernatural. So sorry.

The universe could have existed for eternity. Ohh wait, because i have never seen a car or a chair that has existed for eternity, it is irrational to posit this of our entire universe right? Give me a break. Heck, the universe could be expanding into another universe that could've been around for eternity.

Time itself could have begun at the big bang. A quantum fluctuation could've caused the big bang.

Any attempts to insert God or the supernatural into either of these explanations are purely wishful thinking.

Just a question SOMMS, am I to understand that the first cause argument is what caused you to be a theist? Or is there another more powerful proof that swayed you to accept theism?

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]</p>

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07-26-2002, 04:15 PM	#41
Smitty13 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: California Posts: 22	Please show an example of something in this physical universe that "began to exist" - and was not just a changing of one thing into another.[/QB][/QUOTE] According to the Big Bang, the universe itself began to exist.

07-26-2002, 04:24 PM	#43
Smitty13 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: California Posts: 22	Like I said, how can "nothing" have a definition that includes qualities such as "infinite density", or any quality for that matter? "Nothing" has no qualities or quantities. Nothing is...well...nothing.[/QB][/QUOTE] Now we are getting on the same page. The universe came into being out of nothing!

07-26-2002, 04:39 PM	#44
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	In my original statement I used infinite mass rather than density. I meant to say "Infinite density" is nothing, because if it had any mass it would be something. Sorry for the mix up. Physics definition of density: The mass per unit volume of a substance.

07-26-2002, 04:44 PM	#45
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Now we are getting on the same page. The universe came into being out of nothing! According to one embodiment of Big Bang cosmology, the universe "came into being" out of a singularity. A quantum fluctuation created the singularity. As I stated, quantum fluctuations are not causal events that occur in time. So "first cause" is not applicable.

07-26-2002, 04:49 PM	#46
Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 889	Devilnaut Perhaps you should ask yourself: "Is there any rational reason to think that the universe 'never began'?" All available evidence suggests otherwise. Thats why THIS line of reasoning fails miserably to refute the First Cause argument. It eventually makes a claim 'the universe never began' which can be easily verified as false given mans current knowledge of the cosmos. SOMMS

07-26-2002, 04:50 PM	#47
Smitty13 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: California Posts: 22	Physics definition of density: The mass per unit volume of a substance.[/QB][/QUOTE] Every substance has a designated amount of mass. If something is infinitely dense, it does not have a designated amount of mass, therefore it is equivilent to nothing because if it had any mass it would be something. This comes out of the mathematical impossibility of an actual infinity. There can be a potential infinity, but an actual one is absurd.

07-26-2002, 04:54 PM	#48
Smitty13 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: California Posts: 22	According to one embodiment of Big Bang cosmology, the universe "came into being" out of a singularity. A quantum fluctuation created the singularity. As I stated, quantum fluctuations are not causal events that occur in time. So "first cause" is not applicable.[/QB][/QUOTE] So are you saying the universe had a beginning or not?

07-26-2002, 05:01 PM	#49
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	At a singularity (e.g. the center of a black hole) spacetime has infinite curvature and matter is crushed to infinite density under the pull of infinite gravity. Space and time don't exist as we know them. The laws of physics break down, so it's not possible to envision something with infinite density and zero volume. That doesn't mean it's "nothing."

07-26-2002, 05:01 PM	#50
Devilnaut Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Posts: 374	Smitty, the fact that something is infinitely dense says nothing of its mass. It can have a mass of 1kg, or that of ten million suns. The only information that you get from 'infinitely dense' is that the object is infinitesimally small. SOMMS: As it stands there are a number of probable possibilities on how the Universe came to be. None of these involve god or the supernatural. So sorry. The universe could have existed for eternity. Ohh wait, because i have never seen a car or a chair that has existed for eternity, it is irrational to posit this of our entire universe right? Give me a break. Heck, the universe could be expanding into another universe that could've been around for eternity. Time itself could have begun at the big bang. A quantum fluctuation could've caused the big bang. Any attempts to insert God or the supernatural into either of these explanations are purely wishful thinking. Just a question SOMMS, am I to understand that the first cause argument is what caused you to be a theist? Or is there another more powerful proof that swayed you to accept theism? [ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]</p>

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