Freethought & Rationalism Archive

daemon · 01-28-2002, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Cipriani:
Dear Et al,
I have been buried. But I will resurrect. I always manage to. If you guys were theists, I could ask you to pray for me. As it stands, I'll just ask you to think and maybe manage to work up a little hope.

After one year at a dot com, my job has gone south really badly, such that I'm even having difficulty sleeping now. Guess you could say I'm depressed. How unfortunate that this should happen at such an exciting time here. I was loving this thread and the Atheist Breakfast one. I promise to come back and leave not one jot or title unturned. Until then, please have patience.

In addition to being a bit dyslectic, I'm kinda bi-polar, at least my wife thinks so. But I'm sure that the specifics are bad enough to make even a normal person depressed. But that's what all nut cases think, right? I'm exaggerating slightly here, but essentially, it's the truth. I'm down but not out, for a while. Sincerely Sorry, Albert

Good luck with everything, Albert. I've been down that path, laid off after only 6 months at a dot-com startup... thankfully, I bounced back and got into a much better net company--hint: we just posted a profit

. I may not like your style of argumentation, but I can tell that you're obviously intelligent, so I'm sure you'll have no problem coming back from whatever's thrown at you.

sir drinks-a-lot · 01-28-2002, 11:36 AM

Hang in there, Albert. Maybe we can get Barry to send some cornbread to cheer you up.

The best thing to do in cases like this is to go on a nice long California walk singing Sam's Song.

SAM'S SONG
---------------------------------------------

Here's a happy tune you'll love to croon, They call it Sam's song
It's catchy as can be, the melody, They call it Sam's song
Nothin' on your mind, and then you'll find you're hummin' Sam's Song
Why, it makes you grin, gets under your skin as only a song can do

People you meet out on the street, all whistlin' Sam's Song
Everyone you see will soon agree that it's a grand song
So forget your troubles and wear a smile you'll find you never go wrong
If you learn to croon this happy tune, they call it Sam's song

Here's a happy tune
That'll bring you a smile all the while, when you croon it you're really in style
And the title is Sam's Song
It's catchy as can be,
With a sly little beat, and the melody sweet keeps you tappin' your feet
And the title is Sam's Song
Nothin' on your mind
But the news of the day, and the bills you must pay keep your hair
turnin' gray
But you're still hummin' Sam's Song
Why, it makes you grin, gets under your skin as only a song can do

People you meet,
"Hello Joe, what you know? And remind me to Moe, tell him business is slow
But I'm whistlin' Sam's Song"
Everyone you see
Has a story to tell or a gimmick to sell but agree that it's swell
And it's really a grand song

So forget your troubles and wear a smile, you'll find you never go wrong
If you learn to croon
Like a lark in the park who is making his mark serenadin' the dark
With a chorus of Sam's song

If you learn to croon the happy tune
They call it Sam's song

That sort of thing, with a pint afterwards....

Ted Hoffman · 01-29-2002, 04:06 AM

sorry, posted twice

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: jaliet ]

Ted Hoffman · 01-29-2002, 04:07 AM

Amos

Quote:

The reality is that most people get older but not wiser...

Care to quote some research findings?

Quote:

...and it seems that wisdom is often absent because we wish to adjust to the climate of popular opinion.

Oh, quote some papers and also remember to tell us who you speak for. Who are you referring to when you use the word we?

Quote:

All artisans are artisans because to be an artisan is to be gifted...

Hence everyone who is not gifted is not an artisan...

Quote:

....and if this was not true we would all be Piccaso's (or structural engineers) and finally nobody would really be Picasso and we could never even be able to enjoy the simplest joys of life.

If we could all draw beautifully, we wouldnt be able to enjoy the aesthetic value of beautiful drawings.
So some of us must be poor artists in order for the rest of us (who should be even poorer artists? to enjoy the great work of gifted artists.

Quote:

This now means that even our simplest joys are extrapolations from eternal bliss to identify with the gifts of the artist, or with the visions of the architect as artist who relies upon prior scientific extractions (your choice of words here would be "discoveries") to arouse our passions in agreement with him.

So everytime I appreciate a drawing I am actually expressing my admiration for the other artists (both dead and alive). Meaning, if the artists never existed, I would be incapable of appreciating beauty. We therefore should all bow down and thank all gifted artists for our ability to recognise beauty.

Quote:

The architect is gifted and combines his giftedness with existing science to worship omniscience in his creations (earth is crammed with heaven).

Earth is not capable of beauty. The earth is an ugly place and everytime we see beuty, its because the earth is actually crammed with heaven.

Every architect who endeavours to build/ design a great building is basically an omniscience-worshipper. Whether he knows it or not.

Quote:

Theism and atheism are just two sides of the same coin with the only difference that atheists disagree with the theistic concept of God and subsequently their search for God

This implies that God exists. Theists acknowledge this fact but atheists do not.
You contradict yourself when you refer to God as a concept, then later talk about "search for God". People don't search for concepts.

Quote:

This has to be true because both of them have the same mind that includes the mind of God in which we have noetic vision and from which we extract hyletic vision (the "celestail light" from which we extract the "light of common day").

Just what has to be true? You are equivocating.

Quote:

...We now have the situation that also very few [di-hard] athiests can be artisans.

Because most atheists have no capacity to appreciate beauty (or worship omniscience), very few atheists can become artisans.
Therefore anyone who is thinking of becoming an artisan should not become an atheist because atheism cripples ones ability to be creative/ gifted.

Frankly Amos, I am simply aghast at what you are saying.

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: jaliet ]

HelenM · 01-29-2002, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaliet:
Earth is not capable of beauty. The earth is an ugly place and everytime we see beauty, its because the earth is actually crammed with heaven.

Wow, jaliet, I love when people write this way!

So what does it mean, when we see 'beauty'? Is it really there? Is it all in our minds? What is happening?

love
Helen

Ted Hoffman · 01-29-2002, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:


Wow, jaliet, I love when people write this way!

So what does it mean, when we see 'beauty'? Is it really there? Is it all in our minds? What is happening?

love
Helen

What Amos means to say is that the beauty is there (as per our hyletic vision). But its only there because there is heaven on earth.
Without heaven on earth (ie no heavenly creations), there'd be no beauty on earth. Thus those who appreciate beauty are worshipping omniscience (whatever that means).

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: jaliet ]

01-29-2002, 08:31 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jaliet:


The reality is that most people get older but not wiser...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(jaliet)Care to quote some research findings?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...and it seems that wisdom is often absent because we wish to adjust to the climate of popular opinion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(jaliet)Oh, quote some papers and also remember to tell us who you speak for. Who are you referring to when you use the word we?

Hello jaliet, while I am not a researcher by any strech of the imagination I once read that Erickson (outdated pshychologist) was searching for a word in the English language that described a certain stage of maturity in adults and could not find one. It was supposed to have the connotation of "ripeness" or "yellowness" and here not as in sexual maturity but spirtual which actually existed in all (?) other mythologies. What he did find that the period of adolescence was strange and only (?) existed in our mythology and not in all countries to the same extent but was becoming more evident with education and amongst the educated. I think Archie Butchwald predicted the age of the "gibbling idiot" and Roussaeu suggested that Emile would have a better chance of becoming "real." 

All artisans are artisans because to be an artisan is to be gifted...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(jaliet)Hence everyone who is not gifted is not an artisan...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
....and if this was not true we would all be Piccaso's (or structural engineers) and finally nobody would really be Picasso and we could never even be able to enjoy the simplest joys of life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(jaliet)If we could all draw beautifully, we wouldnt be able to enjoy the aesthetic value of beautiful drawings.
So some of us must be poor artists in order for the rest of us (who should be even poorer artists? to enjoy the great work of gifted artists.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This now means that even our simplest joys are extrapolations from eternal bliss to identify with the gifts of the artist, or with the visions of the architect as artist who relies upon prior scientific extractions (your choice of words here would be "discoveries") to arouse our passions in agreement with him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(jaliet)So everytime I appreciate a drawing I am actually expressing my admiration for the other artists (both dead and alive). Meaning, if the artists never existed, I would be incapable of appreciating beauty. We therefore should all bow down and thank all gifted artists for our ability to recognise beauty.

No, we re-cognize beauty as a truth and share in the artists expression of it. Without the artist we would have same capacity to appeciate but not the opportunity to share in his expression. That is why art is valuable to the have-nots while others can "see fire in every bush."

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The architect is gifted and combines his giftedness with existing science to worship omniscience in his creations (earth is crammed with heaven).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(jaliet)Earth is not capable of beauty. The earth is an ugly place and everytime we see beuty, its because the earth is actually crammed with heaven.
Every architect who endeavours to build/ design a great building is basically an omniscience-worshipper. Whether he knows it or not.

Earth is opposite to heaven and the profane is needed to express the divine. There are basically two ways to do this. One is the scientic method from which follows that "science is beautiful" and the other is inspiration of not just the promising enthymeme (for juniors and scientists) but also the conclusion (seniors and architects as opposite to worn-out disgruntled juniors). 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Theism and atheism are just two sides of the same coin with the only difference that atheists disagree with the theistic concept of God and subsequently their search for God
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(jaliet)This implies that God exists. Theists acknowledge this fact but atheists do not.
You contradict yourself when you refer to God as a concept, then later talk about "search for God". People don't search for concepts.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This has to be true because both of them have the same mind that includes the mind of God in which we have noetic vision and from which we extract hyletic vision (the "celestail light" from which we extract the "light of common day").
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(jaliet)Just what has to be true? You are equivocating.

God does exist and is made know to the conscious mind by the subconscious mind wherein we are God.
What is needed is a change of vision (or of identity to be precise). The declension of God is from "God" to "Lord God" to "like god" and so the understanding of God is from "like god" through "Lord God" to "God." This declension is found in Gen 1, 2, and 3. The discovery of God is through Lord God (the son) until finally all faith and doubt is removed with the words "my Lord and my God" as spoken by Thomas who was the twin of faith.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...We now have the situation that also very few [di-hard] athiests can be artisans.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because most atheists have no capacity to appreciate beauty (or worship omniscience), very few atheists can become artisans.
Therefore anyone who is thinking of becoming an artisan should not become an atheist because atheism cripples ones ability to be creative/ gifted.

I used the word "di-hard" to indicate that atheist fundamentalism is just as stifling to spiritual development and understanding as religious fundamentalism.

Amos

01-29-2002, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:


Wow, jaliet, I love when people write this way!

So what does it mean, when we see 'beauty'? Is it really there? Is it all in our minds? What is happening?

love
Helen

Helen you are a rose among thorns in the desolate heaths of isolation.

Ted Hoffman · 01-29-2002, 08:53 PM

Amos
I find it really tempting to start discussing with you all this "beauty" and "ugly", "profane "and "divine" issue concerning heaven and earth.

Maybe I should given Albert is indisposed and all.

But let me mention this:

About this "Lord God" and "God" issue: There was a time I wanted to prove to a Jehovahs Witness that the God of the bible was a physical god what with showing Moses his backparts, talking face to face with Moses etc.

I did demonstrate to him that the God was a physical one (at the time, I was a believer of the ancient astronaut theory/ intervention theory)then after some consultations, he decided that "Lord" in the bible refers to Jesus and God refers to God.

Two weeks later I demonstrated that "Lord" meant God. He said he couldnt remember saying Lord meant Jesus.

He avoids any biblical topics ever since.

The moral of this great story is that I can always engage you in Biblical discussions of the "Lord" and "God" kind, but then I don't think this is the thread nor the forum for that.

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: jaliet ]

Ted Hoffman · 01-29-2002, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Helen you are a rose among thorns in the desolate heaths of isolation.

Nice one, what about:

Helen you are a beautiful princess among heaving graves of buried knights locked in strife

How about that for "desolate heaths of isolation" huh?

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: jaliet ]

01-29-2002, 04:06 AM	#53
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	sorry, posted twice [ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: jaliet ]</p>

01-29-2002, 08:31 AM	#57
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	[QUOTE]Originally posted by jaliet: <strong> The reality is that most people get older but not wiser... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (jaliet)Care to quote some research findings? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...and it seems that wisdom is often absent because we wish to adjust to the climate of popular opinion. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (jaliet)Oh, quote some papers and also remember to tell us who you speak for. Who are you referring to when you use the word we?</strong> Hello jaliet, while I am not a researcher by any strech of the imagination I once read that Erickson (outdated pshychologist) was searching for a word in the English language that described a certain stage of maturity in adults and could not find one. It was supposed to have the connotation of "ripeness" or "yellowness" and here not as in sexual maturity but spirtual which actually existed in all (?) other mythologies. What he did find that the period of adolescence was strange and only (?) existed in our mythology and not in all countries to the same extent but was becoming more evident with education and amongst the educated. I think Archie Butchwald predicted the age of the "gibbling idiot" and Roussaeu suggested that Emile would have a better chance of becoming "real." <strong> All artisans are artisans because to be an artisan is to be gifted... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (jaliet)Hence everyone who is not gifted is not an artisan... quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ....and if this was not true we would all be Piccaso's (or structural engineers) and finally nobody would really be Picasso and we could never even be able to enjoy the simplest joys of life. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (jaliet)If we could all draw beautifully, we wouldnt be able to enjoy the aesthetic value of beautiful drawings. So some of us must be poor artists in order for the rest of us (who should be even poorer artists? to enjoy the great work of gifted artists. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This now means that even our simplest joys are extrapolations from eternal bliss to identify with the gifts of the artist, or with the visions of the architect as artist who relies upon prior scientific extractions (your choice of words here would be "discoveries") to arouse our passions in agreement with him. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (jaliet)So everytime I appreciate a drawing I am actually expressing my admiration for the other artists (both dead and alive). Meaning, if the artists never existed, I would be incapable of appreciating beauty. We therefore should all bow down and thank all gifted artists for our ability to recognise beauty.</strong> No, we re-cognize beauty as a truth and share in the artists expression of it. Without the artist we would have same capacity to appeciate but not the opportunity to share in his expression. That is why art is valuable to the have-nots while others can "see fire in every bush."<strong> quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The architect is gifted and combines his giftedness with existing science to worship omniscience in his creations (earth is crammed with heaven). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (jaliet)Earth is not capable of beauty. The earth is an ugly place and everytime we see beuty, its because the earth is actually crammed with heaven. Every architect who endeavours to build/ design a great building is basically an omniscience-worshipper. Whether he knows it or not.</strong> Earth is opposite to heaven and the profane is needed to express the divine. There are basically two ways to do this. One is the scientic method from which follows that "science is beautiful" and the other is inspiration of not just the promising enthymeme (for juniors and scientists) but also the conclusion (seniors and architects as opposite to worn-out disgruntled juniors). <strong> quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Theism and atheism are just two sides of the same coin with the only difference that atheists disagree with the theistic concept of God and subsequently their search for God -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (jaliet)This implies that God exists. Theists acknowledge this fact but atheists do not. You contradict yourself when you refer to God as a concept, then later talk about "search for God". People don't search for concepts. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has to be true because both of them have the same mind that includes the mind of God in which we have noetic vision and from which we extract hyletic vision (the "celestail light" from which we extract the "light of common day"). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (jaliet)Just what has to be true? You are equivocating.</strong> God does exist and is made know to the conscious mind by the subconscious mind wherein we are God. What is needed is a change of vision (or of identity to be precise). The declension of God is from "God" to "Lord God" to "like god" and so the understanding of God is from "like god" through "Lord God" to "God." This declension is found in Gen 1, 2, and 3. The discovery of God is through Lord God (the son) until finally all faith and doubt is removed with the words "my Lord and my God" as spoken by Thomas who was the twin of faith.<strong> quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...We now have the situation that also very few [di-hard] athiests can be artisans. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because most atheists have no capacity to appreciate beauty (or worship omniscience), very few atheists can become artisans. Therefore anyone who is thinking of becoming an artisan should not become an atheist because atheism cripples ones ability to be creative/ gifted.</strong> I used the word "di-hard" to indicate that atheist fundamentalism is just as stifling to spiritual development and understanding as religious fundamentalism. Amos

01-29-2002, 08:53 PM	#59
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Amos I find it really tempting to start discussing with you all this "beauty" and "ugly", "profane "and "divine" issue concerning heaven and earth. Maybe I should given Albert is indisposed and all. But let me mention this: About this "Lord God" and "God" issue: There was a time I wanted to prove to a Jehovahs Witness that the God of the bible was a physical god what with showing Moses his backparts, talking face to face with Moses etc. I did demonstrate to him that the God was a physical one (at the time, I was a believer of the ancient astronaut theory/ intervention theory)then after some consultations, he decided that "Lord" in the bible refers to Jesus and God refers to God. Two weeks later I demonstrated that "Lord" meant God. He said he couldnt remember saying Lord meant Jesus. He avoids any biblical topics ever since. The moral of this great story is that I can always engage you in Biblical discussions of the "Lord" and "God" kind, but then I don't think this is the thread nor the forum for that. [ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: jaliet ]</p>

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01-28-2002, 11:36 AM	#52
sir drinks-a-lot Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cole Valley, CA Posts: 665	Hang in there, Albert. Maybe we can get Barry to send some cornbread to cheer you up. The best thing to do in cases like this is to go on a nice long California walk singing Sam's Song. SAM'S SONG --------------------------------------------- Here's a happy tune you'll love to croon, They call it Sam's song It's catchy as can be, the melody, They call it Sam's song Nothin' on your mind, and then you'll find you're hummin' Sam's Song Why, it makes you grin, gets under your skin as only a song can do People you meet out on the street, all whistlin' Sam's Song Everyone you see will soon agree that it's a grand song So forget your troubles and wear a smile you'll find you never go wrong If you learn to croon this happy tune, they call it Sam's song Here's a happy tune That'll bring you a smile all the while, when you croon it you're really in style And the title is Sam's Song It's catchy as can be, With a sly little beat, and the melody sweet keeps you tappin' your feet And the title is Sam's Song Nothin' on your mind But the news of the day, and the bills you must pay keep your hair turnin' gray But you're still hummin' Sam's Song Why, it makes you grin, gets under your skin as only a song can do People you meet, "Hello Joe, what you know? And remind me to Moe, tell him business is slow But I'm whistlin' Sam's Song" Everyone you see Has a story to tell or a gimmick to sell but agree that it's swell And it's really a grand song So forget your troubles and wear a smile, you'll find you never go wrong If you learn to croon Like a lark in the park who is making his mark serenadin' the dark With a chorus of Sam's song If you learn to croon the happy tune They call it Sam's song That sort of thing, with a pint afterwards....

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