Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pomp · 04-05-2002, 12:02 PM

Multiple copies of a post deleted.

Koyaanisqatsi · 04-05-2002, 12:05 PM

Sorry, I got pissed off.

It's been happening a lot lately.

And you're right leonarde, I could find no reference to arterial blood regarding the wrists from your sources either.

The only direct mention of arterial blood is from the head wounds.

Now, answer my questions.

Starting with, how would one miss the arteries in the wrists when using a nail large enough to support a 150-180 lb man?

[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

leonarde · 04-05-2002, 12:45 PM

Britinusa raised an interesting point, even though
I think he got it backwards: I was TOTALLY ignorant of the existence of the S of Turin until
my mid- 20s so the religious tradition in which
I was brought up (RCism) did NOT and DOES NOT put
any theological emphasis on the Shroud.
Still I think it WOULD be illustrative to take an
example of ANOTHER (alleged)relic thought to have
belonged to a famous person. Say, (this is just
an imaginary case), you have a sword which is old-
looking and some claim it belonged to Alexander
the Great. What does the PRIMARY investigator (ie
archaeologist)look for in general terms?

1)structure: (what metal(s) was it made of?, How
was it cast? Is there an identifiable style similar to OTHER swords of antiquity? Even if this
is not DETERMINATIVE it can be eliminative: a metal which was just not used in Alexander's time
and/or place might indicate inauthenticity in even
the most general sense. Especially if the introduction of a given metal had been known to
have occurred AFTER the death of Alexander.
2)age: (this can, and frequently is, related to the above). Again it CAN be eliminative: if the sword was made after the death of Alexander in the
4th Century BC then it can be eliminated as his
property.
3)features that strongly suggest or definitely
indicate that the sword belonged to Alexander (could be based on location that the sword was found, an inscription, proximity to other effects/residence of Alexander OR indications that this sword may have be passed down from generation to generation among Macedonian royalty.

So the 3 levels or aspects of authenticity which
I gave before work basically along the same lines.
The only thing complicating this is:
1)the higher possibility of a forgery (since an
authentic shroud would be such a big religious
deal)
2)the fact that the image's date MIGHT be somewhat
different from the shroud's, possibly VERY different.

STILL I think that the general 3 point authenticity guidelines hold.

Cheers!

Koyaanisqatsi · 04-05-2002, 01:00 PM

Still waiting.

Principia · 04-05-2002, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde:
Okaaaaaay, somewhere back there (forgot the pages)I gave info from at least 2 forensic pathology texts. In ONE of them I specifically quote the author(s) on the phenomenon of postmortem bleeding. Sorry, you will have to find it yourself. Dead men don't wear plaid but they do indeed SOMETIMES bleed (and sometimes for hours later).

Disingenuous, and misleading. I have already demonstrated quite clearly that leonarde's quote (on pg. 10 of this thread) was not at all relevant to the situation at hand. Post-mortem bleeding as used by leonarde is by itself a vague term, which neither specifies the condition of the corpse, nor the time elapsed post-mortem, nor the amount of prior *external* blood loss, nor the location of the bleeding. leonarde compounds the ambiguity by imposing his own interpretation of the content despite his admittedly poor understanding of medical physiology.

Enough said,
SC

leonarde · 04-05-2002, 03:43 PM

SC,
You're a fine one to talk about disingenuous!

Madeth stated:

Quote:

AFAIK, dead men don't bleed, esp. out the top or extremities of the body, after what must have been at least a couple of hours,[...]

I answered the question.
SC, you can take it up with Zugibe or the next
Shroud forensics man: then your sneers won't make
any difference.....

Cheers!

leonarde · 04-05-2002, 03:59 PM

[WE interrupt this serious thread to bring you
news of the future: what will they be posting
on page 39 of "The Shroud of Turin" thread?]

Uh, I'm Darrel, and this is my brother Darrel,
and this is my OTHER brother, Darrel. We ain't
been follering this here thread but jest noticed
that it a looooong drink a water. We know nothin'
about the Shroud Turin but are convinced it is
a fake, just like the Mona Lisa!!!! Dontcha know
that they gived it carbonate-15 testing years and
years ago and the durn thing is only 87 years old!
Lest ways that's what Darrel says.........

[We return to previously scheduled programming]

Principia · 04-05-2002, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde:
I answered the question. SC, you can take it up with Zugibe or the next Shroud forensics man: then your sneers won't make any difference.....

Another disingenuous remark. leonarde could answer nothing because he has no understanding of medical physiology. Madeth makes an analytic observation based on medical facts, and leonarde resorts to quotes taken out of context. Strangely familiar...

I have no dispute with a colleague about the relevant medical interpretation at hand:

Quote:

Zuigbe: First of all, most of the blood within the scourge wounds of the victim would have been clotted and the blood located both at the periphery and outside of the wounds would have dried long before the victim was placed on the cross... Forgetting all of the other wounds, no one would argue that the scourge wounds were made and clotting begun several hours prior to death. Moreover, most forensic experts agree that the Man of the Shroud shows evidence of rigor mortis because of the bent knees and absence of a neck, therefore indicating that the crucified was dead for some time before being taken down from the cross. Thus, according to the studies of Lavoie's group, these perfectly defined wounds should not have transferred at all.

Enough said,
SC

leonarde · 04-05-2002, 07:16 PM

Posted by SC:

Quote:

Madeth makes an analytic observation based on medical facts, and
leonarde resorts to quotes taken out of context.

What "medical facts"????? He said that
as far as he knew dead bodies don't bleed. Sometimes they do. Get a clue, SC!

Principia · 04-05-2002, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde:
Sometimes they do.

And sometimes people named Leonard are actually intelligent.

SC

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04-05-2002, 12:02 PM	#321
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	Multiple copies of a post deleted.

04-05-2002, 12:05 PM	#322
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	Sorry, I got pissed off. It's been happening a lot lately. And you're right leonarde, I could find no reference to arterial blood regarding the wrists from your sources either. The only direct mention of arterial blood is from the head wounds. Now, answer my questions. Starting with, how would one miss the arteries in the wrists when using a nail large enough to support a 150-180 lb man? [ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

04-05-2002, 12:45 PM	#323
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	Britinusa raised an interesting point, even though I think he got it backwards: I was TOTALLY ignorant of the existence of the S of Turin until my mid- 20s so the religious tradition in which I was brought up (RCism) did NOT and DOES NOT put any theological emphasis on the Shroud. Still I think it WOULD be illustrative to take an example of ANOTHER (alleged)relic thought to have belonged to a famous person. Say, (this is just an imaginary case), you have a sword which is old- looking and some claim it belonged to Alexander the Great. What does the PRIMARY investigator (ie archaeologist)look for in general terms? 1)structure: (what metal(s) was it made of?, How was it cast? Is there an identifiable style similar to OTHER swords of antiquity? Even if this is not DETERMINATIVE it can be eliminative: a metal which was just not used in Alexander's time and/or place might indicate inauthenticity in even the most general sense. Especially if the introduction of a given metal had been known to have occurred AFTER the death of Alexander. 2)age: (this can, and frequently is, related to the above). Again it CAN be eliminative: if the sword was made after the death of Alexander in the 4th Century BC then it can be eliminated as his property. 3)features that strongly suggest or definitely indicate that the sword belonged to Alexander (could be based on location that the sword was found, an inscription, proximity to other effects/residence of Alexander OR indications that this sword may have be passed down from generation to generation among Macedonian royalty. So the 3 levels or aspects of authenticity which I gave before work basically along the same lines. The only thing complicating this is: 1)the higher possibility of a forgery (since an authentic shroud would be such a big religious deal) 2)the fact that the image's date MIGHT be somewhat different from the shroud's, possibly VERY different. STILL I think that the general 3 point authenticity guidelines hold. Cheers!

04-05-2002, 01:00 PM	#324
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	Still waiting.

04-05-2002, 03:59 PM	#327
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	[WE interrupt this serious thread to bring you news of the future: what will they be posting on page 39 of "The Shroud of Turin" thread?] Uh, I'm Darrel, and this is my brother Darrel, and this is my OTHER brother, Darrel. We ain't been follering this here thread but jest noticed that it a looooong drink a water. We know nothin' about the Shroud Turin but are convinced it is a fake, just like the Mona Lisa!!!! Dontcha know that they gived it carbonate-15 testing years and years ago and the durn thing is only 87 years old! Lest ways that's what Darrel says......... [We return to previously scheduled programming]

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