Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Karen M · 03-22-2002, 06:45 AM

hello again stone

>>>The fact is, Stalin and Mao really did kill and imprison millions of religious folks because of their religion. Stalin really did dynamite thousands of churches and Mao really did torture many Buddhist monks. They may not have used the magic words you demand, " we do this in the name of atheism". They would say things like "uprooting tribal superstition" or " We are ridding ourselves of regressive elements".<<<

Yes, again, I am not denying that they targeted some relgions. I am simply saying that they targeted these religions because they believed that they were a threat to their power, NOT because they wanted to promote atheism.

>>>But no one doubts that they were targeting religion<<>>, or that they did it out of their belief in a political ideology of which atheism was an important part.<<<

This is wrong. They did it because they wanted to maintain power over the government. Atheism had nothing to do with it. They killed many atheists that were a threat to their power also.

>>>If you want athiesm to escape responsibilty for Mao and Stalin ( and I understand fully why you would want to ), then let Christianity off the hook for the Crusades and the Inquisition and Islam off the hook for 911.<<<

Again, this is a false analogy. Stalin's position on the existance or non-existance of God did not modivate him to commit his crimes. Christianity and Islam were parts of the MODIVATION for these other crimes.

I'll be back later

Karen

stonetools · 03-22-2002, 07:13 AM

Hello karen

Quote:

>>>One just could just as well as argue that " the people who engaged in the Crusades and the Inquisition did it to support a political and economic system of which Christianity was an impotrant part, but there is no warrant in pure Christianity for what they did ."<<<

This is a false analogy. The Crusades and the Inquisition were directly influenced by Christianity [or the individuals beliefs about what Christiantiy said]. They were specificly inacted to kill or drive away anyone who was not Christian because the individuals in charge believed that was what their religion demanded.

Okay, how about this one. The Stalinist and Maoist presecutions were directly influenced by their brand of athiesm-Marxist-Leninism- { or by the individuals beliefs about what their brand of atheism said). They were specifically enacted to kill or torture anyone who was not Marxist because the individuals believed that was what Marxism demanded"
Is there a substantial difference between those two? Would Christians in prison in China or Buddhists in Tibet really think that there is a difference? IN the real world, Karen, there is no difference.

Quote:

A correct analogy would be that I can not say that Hitler mass murdering people was modivated by Christianity simply because Hitler was a Christian. Hitler was not killing people to promote Christianity or because of anything which he believed his religion told him to do; he was killing them because he wanted to take over the world and he wanted the aryan race to feel superior.

What in the world makes you think Hitler was a Christian? He was a lapsed Catholic who, following the teachings of Nietziche, believed that Christianity and Judaism were slave religions
and that Ayrans should rid themselves of both religions. We all know what he tried to do about JUdaism, but he also tried hard to wipe out Polish Catholicism(two million Poles died in Hitler's death camps).
I think of Hitler as an atheist, myself.But you already have enough on your plate trying to get away from Stalin and Mao, so lets leave Hitler out of it.

( Needless to say, of course, people who admire Nietziche claim that the disciple distorted the master's teaching

missus_gumby · 03-22-2002, 07:22 AM

This thread has gone way off topic. Surely the discussion is about the US fundamentalist funded lunacy that is currently threatening the British educational system, and it's false relationship with the science curriculum?

Tell you what Stonetools, why not start another thread in the Misc discussion forum? Maybe you would care to pen a list of all the armies that have been inspired by the atheist banner fluttering before them? Just a thought.

Martin

Alexis Comnenus · 03-22-2002, 07:34 AM

Karen,

Atheism was central to Stalin's philosophy. He was a driven Marxist-Leninist who acted to promote that ideology. Marxists have tried to paint him as a power mad nutter but this won't wash. It is not a reflection on secular humanists that atheism formed a central part of other ideologies too but a certain amount of honesty in admitting this would be a good thing. If Stalin had not been an atheist he would not have been a Marxist and would not have run the Soviet Union.

Frankly I find all this argument as childish and stupid. Atheism is not more invalidated by people who thought it worth killing for than theism is.

Stonetools,

Hitler was certainly not an atheist but neither was he a Christian. Friends with more interest in him that I think good for them say he was a pantheistic pagan of sorts. Goodness knows what that means but whatever he believed, I don't think we should be encouraging it

.

Regrads

Alex

Oolon Colluphid · 03-22-2002, 07:45 AM

I'm no expert on political history, but it seems to me that the atheism of Stalin and Mao were so tightly bound up with the political ideologies that to claim that they did what they did because of their atheism is stretching the point beyond breaking.

That's not to say that their atheism, being part of the ideologies, wasn't perhaps a factor. But the best one could say is that it may have contributed to the mindset that led to them perpetrating their atrocities.

Even allowing such a contribution, I�m inclined to think that when politicians are planning stuff, being the pragmatists that they are, gods or lack of wouldn�t be uppermost in their minds. So it may have been a minor factor. This contrasts rather sharply with the masses of killings carried out in the name of faith.

Sure, religion has been used as an excuse. But you don�t motivate the �ground troops� to actually do these things with atheism; it is done in god�s name. The controllers may be cynical politicians; the executioners are believers. I�m not sure people do things because of a lack of belief.

If anything, atheism is an inhibitory factor. People are less willing to risk their lives fighting others if they think this life is the only one they�ve got. Conversely, try telling an hormone-hyped adolescent in a women-repressive society such as an Islamic one that if they die they�ll get umpteen virgins to shag forever, and I imagine there�s something of a queue.

Just rambling...

Oolon

Oolon Colluphid · 03-22-2002, 07:48 AM

And Mrs Gumby is right, of course (mea culpa too!). This would be better in a thread of its own.

Back to the topic please...

Cheers, Oolon

RufusAtticus · 03-22-2002, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexis Comnenus:
Atheism was central to Stalin's philosophy. He was a driven Marxist-Leninist who acted to promote that ideology.

If Stalin wanted to promote Athiesm, why did he also kill Athiests along with the Christians?

-RvFvS

scigirl · 03-22-2002, 08:04 AM

Stonetools said,

Quote:

Ha! At least, we Christians own up to our bad guys.You athiests dismiss your mass murderers with hypocritical hand waving.If you are going to pin Torquemada on us, at least have to guts to own up to your Stalins

Mwa ha ha ha ha! Well I wish the christians would start recognizing their own "bad guys" right now. I know that not every christian is a YEC fundie who thinks that Harry Potter fans, homosexuals, and atheists should be burned at the stake. But that is exactly who is getting the press. I have heard Christians condemn Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell in the media, but it doesn't happen very often. And don't even get me started on the priests and sexual abuse thing. . .

Their silence speaks volumes, stonetools.

Quote:

The United States was set up as a pluralistic state, in which no religion would have prefence and in which all religions and philosophies could be freely practised. The many religions in the US are proof of its pluralism

Mwa ha ha ha! Yep, every day I see a sign in a business window that says, "Vishnu bless America." Oh, and that wonderful president of ours totally recognizes that unbelievers do exist and that they have morals and feelings too. Take a look around. Yes we have a hell of a lot more religious freedom than some places in the world. But it is NOT a pluralistic society. Check out some of the laws being debated by Congress. I don't see any religiously-motivated laws OTHER THAN fundamentalist Christianity.

Quote:

I think the key is that when it comes to mass murder, don't let anyone off the hook. Torquemada may not have been a true Christian, but then where were the true Christians who should have stopped him?
The atheist defense that Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were not true atheists does'nt work for me, either. If they were not true atheists, what were they? .(And where were the "true" atheists to stop them?)
I'll tell you: they were true, intolerant, doctrinaire atheists, who caused mass mayhem, just like true, intolerant, doctrinaire religious folks.

Finally, you got it. So quit bringing up fucking Stalin, and we won't bring up Sept 11. Fair?

Alexis said,

Quote:

Religious people need to face up to evil done in the name and because of religion but atheists need to do the same thing about the evil done to enforce atheism.

Ok, please point to current examples in the USA that illustrate the evils done by atheists because of their atheism (and NO TEACHING OF EVOLUTION DOES NOT COUNT!

)

Stonetools said,

Quote:

One just could just as well as argue that " the people who engaged in the Crusades and the Inquisition did it to support a political and economic system of which Christianity was an impotrant part, but there is no warrant in pure Christianity for what they did ."

But isn't that part of what happened? I agree with the first part of your sentence (but then again I often dissent with some members here, because I do not believe that religion is responsible for all our problems or even most of them, I think human nature is because we evolved from damn chimps who are violent!)

Quote:

I think of Hitler as an atheist, myself.

Oh, go fuck yourself.

Damn, my eloquence and polite behavior seems to have left my body the minute I started writing my thesis. But I'm not going to apologize, because you obviously meant to insult us by saying that.

This thread has become ridiculous. Anyone who believes that one particular belief system is the main cause of anything humans do, apparently is talking about different humans than the ones I am familar with. I think Pol Pot and Stalin represent the extremes of the types of evil we can carry out. In order to carry out mass murder, people like Stalin need to convince their followers to go along. Belief systems that promote blind adherance to authority (most religions) can certainly help out. But many other factors are involved. For instance, the power of denial, cultural valuese, the economic state of the country. And of course, there's human nature - if we did evolve from a chimp-type creature, than we are going to be prone to territorial violence. I watch a show on chimps, than i watch the news about Israel/Palestine, and honestly I think the only difference is that those guys have guns.

So can we talk about british creationists now?

scigirl

Jubal · 03-22-2002, 08:15 AM

Stonetools is trying to create a strawman and we're not going to get anywhere by creating an anti-strawman to kick the shit out of. He's not going to be satisfied until we <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> , convert to Young Earth Creationism, confess that we intended to destroy the world in the name of Satan, and write a book about "the evils of Evolutionism" which calls for it to be removed from the curriculum and replaced with YEC (and credit him with the idea).

I personally don't care if you worship Yahweh, Allah, some hairy Viking god, a Hindu godess, or Hubert, the Dancing Beaver Deity; death is final, your deity doesn't exist and will never exist no matter how you try to wish it into being, and creationism is as much a science as I am a tube worm (if that).

missus_gumby · 03-22-2002, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scigirl:


So can we talk about british creationists now?

scigirl

The other day I saw both the Head Teacher and science (read: creationist religion) teacher from Emannuel college on TV (on a news program), deftly avoiding giving a straight answers to straight questions (which in itself goes against NT biblical teaching). The 'science' teacher has a north American accent. Enough said.

Martin

03-22-2002, 06:45 AM	#61
Karen M Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 235	hello again stone >>>The fact is, Stalin and Mao really did kill and imprison millions of religious folks because of their religion. Stalin really did dynamite thousands of churches and Mao really did torture many Buddhist monks. They may not have used the magic words you demand, " we do this in the name of atheism". They would say things like "uprooting tribal superstition" or " We are ridding ourselves of regressive elements".<<< Yes, again, I am not denying that they targeted some relgions. I am simply saying that they targeted these religions because they believed that they were a threat to their power, NOT because they wanted to promote atheism. >>>But no one doubts that they were targeting religion<<< I did not say that they didn't target some religions. I am disputing their motives. >>>, or that they did it out of their belief in a political ideology of which atheism was an important part.<<< This is wrong. They did it because they wanted to maintain power over the government. Atheism had nothing to do with it. They killed many atheists that were a threat to their power also. >>>If you want athiesm to escape responsibilty for Mao and Stalin ( and I understand fully why you would want to ), then let Christianity off the hook for the Crusades and the Inquisition and Islam off the hook for 911.<<< Again, this is a false analogy. Stalin's position on the existance or non-existance of God did not modivate him to commit his crimes. Christianity and Islam were parts of the MODIVATION for these other crimes. I'll be back later Karen

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-22-2002, 07:22 AM	#63
missus_gumby Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: UK Posts: 1,898	This thread has gone way off topic. Surely the discussion is about the US fundamentalist funded lunacy that is currently threatening the British educational system, and it's false relationship with the science curriculum? Tell you what Stonetools, why not start another thread in the Misc discussion forum? Maybe you would care to pen a list of all the armies that have been inspired by the atheist banner fluttering before them? Just a thought. Martin

03-22-2002, 07:34 AM	#64
Alexis Comnenus Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: UK Posts: 63	Karen, Atheism was central to Stalin's philosophy. He was a driven Marxist-Leninist who acted to promote that ideology. Marxists have tried to paint him as a power mad nutter but this won't wash. It is not a reflection on secular humanists that atheism formed a central part of other ideologies too but a certain amount of honesty in admitting this would be a good thing. If Stalin had not been an atheist he would not have been a Marxist and would not have run the Soviet Union. Frankly I find all this argument as childish and stupid. Atheism is not more invalidated by people who thought it worth killing for than theism is. Stonetools, Hitler was certainly not an atheist but neither was he a Christian. Friends with more interest in him that I think good for them say he was a pantheistic pagan of sorts. Goodness knows what that means but whatever he believed, I don't think we should be encouraging it . Regrads Alex

03-22-2002, 07:45 AM	#65
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	I'm no expert on political history, but it seems to me that the atheism of Stalin and Mao were so tightly bound up with the political ideologies that to claim that they did what they did because of their atheism is stretching the point beyond breaking. That's not to say that their atheism, being part of the ideologies, wasn't perhaps a factor. But the best one could say is that it may have contributed to the mindset that led to them perpetrating their atrocities. Even allowing such a contribution, I�m inclined to think that when politicians are planning stuff, being the pragmatists that they are, gods or lack of wouldn�t be uppermost in their minds. So it may have been a minor factor. This contrasts rather sharply with the masses of killings carried out in the name of faith. Sure, religion has been used as an excuse. But you don�t motivate the �ground troops� to actually do these things with atheism; it is done in god�s name. The controllers may be cynical politicians; the executioners are believers. I�m not sure people do things because of a lack of belief. If anything, atheism is an inhibitory factor. People are less willing to risk their lives fighting others if they think this life is the only one they�ve got. Conversely, try telling an hormone-hyped adolescent in a women-repressive society such as an Islamic one that if they die they�ll get umpteen virgins to shag forever, and I imagine there�s something of a queue. Just rambling... Oolon

03-22-2002, 07:48 AM	#66
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	And Mrs Gumby is right, of course (mea culpa too!). This would be better in a thread of its own. Back to the topic please... Cheers, Oolon

03-22-2002, 08:15 AM	#69
Jubal Banned Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NC-US Posts: 98	Stonetools is trying to create a strawman and we're not going to get anywhere by creating an anti-strawman to kick the shit out of. He's not going to be satisfied until we <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> , convert to Young Earth Creationism, confess that we intended to destroy the world in the name of Satan, and write a book about "the evils of Evolutionism" which calls for it to be removed from the curriculum and replaced with YEC (and credit him with the idea). I personally don't care if you worship Yahweh, Allah, some hairy Viking god, a Hindu godess, or Hubert, the Dancing Beaver Deity; death is final, your deity doesn't exist and will never exist no matter how you try to wish it into being, and creationism is as much a science as I am a tube worm (if that).

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.