Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jat · 06-05-2003, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by yguy
No, because the murderer has forfeited his right to life; therefore killing him is not denying his right to life, because he no longer has it.

If it can be denied than it is not a right. It is a privilege.

Mike Rosoft · 06-05-2003, 01:42 PM

[devil's advocate]
Personally, I don't find the claim that death penalty violates the right to life very convincing. After all, imprisonment violates the right to personal liberty.
[/devil's advocate]

Mike Rosoft

NHGH · 06-05-2003, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rosoft
I don't believe that allowing the sentenced criminal to either choose death or life imprisonment is a good idea. It would most likely solve the problem of wrongful executions, but it would have its problem, too:

Quoting Amnesty International's report on death penalty in the USA:

Quote:

[Death penalty:] Futile
...
More than 90 other prisoners have gone to their deaths after dropping their appeals, including those listed below. Such cases have been described as state-assisted suicide, but are perhaps more accurately characterized as prisoner-assisted homicide. In any event, the cases of ''volunteers'' serve to illustrate the cruel exercise in futility that is capital punishment. In some cases, the individual actually claimed to have committed the crime in the first place in order that the state would kill them, not only showing the death penalty's failure as a deterrent, but also its possible counter-deterrent effect.
...
Jeremy Sagastegui. Executed, Washington 1998. Acting as his own lawyer, he rejected jurors less likely to favour execution. He offered no mitigation, and urged the jurors to sentence him to death. In an interview before his execution, he said: ''if the state wouldn't have had the death penalty, those people would still be alive''.

Mike Rosoft

As I said previously, I'm sure there are some isolated instances of the death penalty being used as state-assisted suicide, but I'm not convinced that it happens often enough to be a serious policy concern. (And I think we have to be careful here to distinguish between those who commit murder for the express purposes of receiving the death penalty and those who, having been convicted of murder, decide that execution is less onerous than life imprisonment.) As a general rule, I think those who choose execution, choose it as the lesser of two evils.

I don't think that the measure I propose would solve the problem of wrongful executions. In fact, I suspect that some innocent people would opt for execution because they prefer it to serving out an undeserved life sentence, especially if they feel that they are unlikely to be exonerated. I propose it because I think it's a useful way of putting a check on state power: establishing death as the most severe penalty it can inflict on its citizens.

Jat · 06-05-2003, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rosoft
[devil's advocate]
Personally, I don't find the claim that death penalty violates the right to life very convincing. After all, imprisonment violates the right to personal liberty.
[/devil's advocate]

Mike Rosoft

All that means is there there really isn't any such thing as absolute rights.

everlastingtongue · 06-05-2003, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jat
I would rather die than spend the rest of my life imprisoned. That is a fate far worse than death. Those who think that prisons are like a resort where one is clothed and feed haven't spent any real time behind bars. One of my older brothers spent a few years in prison for gunrunning for a biker gang.

As I pointed out in the similar death penalty thread in MF&P, if this were true � most prisoners felt this way � then why aren�t we seeing mass suicides or appeals for death, from long-term prisoners?

The will to live is incredibly strong, even when faced with horrible conditions. That is why the death penalty is so much more severe than any length of prison term.

Grad Student Humanist · 06-05-2003, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rosoft
I don't believe that allowing the sentenced criminal to either choose death or life imprisonment is a good idea. It would most likely solve the problem of wrongful executions, but it would have its problem, too:

Quoting Amnesty International's report on death penalty in the USA:

Mike Rosoft

I don't understand the concern. If someone chooses of their own free will to commit suicide, I support that decision, whether or not it's state-assisted, doctor-assisted, family assisted or totally self-administered.

If a person does not want to live with him/herself after committing a crime which would land them in prison for life, or if a person simply prefers execution to life imprisonment then I think the person's wishes should be taken into account.

Opera Nut · 06-05-2003, 09:03 PM

Speaking of executing people in the US for treason:

Shrub is missing from the record for 18 months of his time in the Texas Air National Guard. He was prevented from flying by not showing up for his flight physical. He was transferred from Ellington AFB, Texas, to Alabama, and mysteriously disappeared in transit, for EIGHTEEN MONTHS. He was in the Air National Guard flying an obsolete plane to get out of going to Vietnam.

First of all, that's AWOL. That should be worth a long sentence in the brig and a court martial.
Secondly, he was gone plenty long enough to be a deserter. Deserters from the US Military get long prison sentences or even death by hanging.

However, Shrub has never been called to account for his missing 18 months, which would normally result in a capital offense - desertion.

Why? Because his family is rich and powerful. He's never worked a day in his life and probably never had to crack a book either.

Documentation:
www.awolbush.com/

yguy · 06-05-2003, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Opera Nut
Speaking of executing people in the US for treason:<snip>

Think you could at least make your diversionary rhetoric a shade less transparent?

Worldtraveller · 06-05-2003, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jat

Plus, it costs more to execute a person than it does to imprison them for life. That is one of the main complaints of those for capital punishment. That they don't want to waste their tax dollars keeping criminals alive.

I don't necessarily disagree here, but do you have any links to provide documentation of this? I find it a little hard to believe, but I can accept hard numbers.

Thanks for starting this thread, pope. It is interesting to compare and contrast this with some of the views that have been expressed in the 'monster abortion thread'.

-Lane

Jat · 06-06-2003, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by everlastingtongue

As I pointed out in the similar death penalty thread in MF&P, if this were true � most prisoners felt this way � then why aren�t we seeing mass suicides or appeals for death, from long-term prisoners?

Maybe because it is usually chalked up to something else.

The will to live is incredibly strong, even when faced with horrible conditions. That is why the death penalty is so much more severe than any length of prison term.

Spend some time in prison and come back and say this. The death penalty is getting off too easily.

06-05-2003, 09:03 PM	#47
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Shrub committed a capital offense but never punished Speaking of executing people in the US for treason: Shrub is missing from the record for 18 months of his time in the Texas Air National Guard. He was prevented from flying by not showing up for his flight physical. He was transferred from Ellington AFB, Texas, to Alabama, and mysteriously disappeared in transit, for EIGHTEEN MONTHS. He was in the Air National Guard flying an obsolete plane to get out of going to Vietnam. First of all, that's AWOL. That should be worth a long sentence in the brig and a court martial. Secondly, he was gone plenty long enough to be a deserter. Deserters from the US Military get long prison sentences or even death by hanging. However, Shrub has never been called to account for his missing 18 months, which would normally result in a capital offense - desertion. Why? Because his family is rich and powerful. He's never worked a day in his life and probably never had to crack a book either. Documentation: www.awolbush.com/

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06-05-2003, 01:42 PM	#42
Mike Rosoft Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Prague, Czech Republic Posts: 965	[devil's advocate] Personally, I don't find the claim that death penalty violates the right to life very convincing. After all, imprisonment violates the right to personal liberty. [/devil's advocate] Mike Rosoft

06-06-2003, 02:43 AM	#50
Jat Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 1,311	Originally posted by everlastingtongue As I pointed out in the similar death penalty thread in MF&P, if this were true � most prisoners felt this way � then why aren�t we seeing mass suicides or appeals for death, from long-term prisoners? Maybe because it is usually chalked up to something else. The will to live is incredibly strong, even when faced with horrible conditions. That is why the death penalty is so much more severe than any length of prison term. Spend some time in prison and come back and say this. The death penalty is getting off too easily.

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