Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JERDOG · 10-10-2003, 02:22 PM

I took a peek inside of his book today because I was curious to see what he is baseing his argument on about American being a "christian nation".

He only provided two quotes from his "extensive research" on the issue. I only remember the one so here it is.

Quote:

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not on the power of government...[but] upon the capacity of each and every one of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." James Madison

And of coarse we all know that this one quote means that America should be a theocracy.

Im wondering if Bill saw the following quote when he did his "extensive research"?

Quote:

It was the Universal opinion of the Century preceding the last, that Civil Government could not stand without the prop of a religious establishment; and that the Christian religion itself, would perish if not supported by the legal provision for its clergy. The experience of Virginia conspiciously corroboates the disproof of both opinions. The Civil Government, tho' bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success; whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the TOTAL SEPARATION OF THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE. [James Madison, as quoted in Robert L. Maddox: Separation of Church and State; Guarantor of Religious Freeedom]

I like this quote especially because notice the context of the word "religion" in the first sentence. The claim is often made by the theocrates that when they say "religion" in the constitution they mean specific religion such as Catholic, baptist etc etc. However that is not the case here. Religion is used in the context meaning christianity in general.

And then of coarse the very last line is the iceing on the cake.

What is realy sad is that the people who read that part of his book will think that they are getting the unbiased truth.

Its Own Level · 10-10-2003, 02:34 PM

Quote:

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not on the power of government...[but] upon the capacity of each and every one of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." James Madison

Isn't this one of those unsubstantiated David Barton quotes?

Stephen Maturin · 10-10-2003, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Its Own Level
Isn't this one of those unsubstantiated David Barton quotes?

You betcha! That Madison quote is bogus. Even Barton is compelled to admit that the quote is "unconfirmed."

JERDOG · 10-10-2003, 03:23 PM

Hum, Bill is claiming to have the letters from madison to Jefferson ( I think). However he has not shown the proof, only the assertion.
Does anyone know where we can see the letters that were written in full?

Toto · 10-10-2003, 03:32 PM

More on that quote:

Shoddy Workmanship

Quote:

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

So said James Madison, architect of the Constitution, defender of religious freedom and fourth president of the United States, according to the Religious Right.

But to church-state separationists and historians of the post-colonial period, something about this Madison quote has never felt quite right. It seemed unlikely that the same Madison who advocated "total separation of the church from the state" and battled to disestablish the Anglican Church in Virginia would say it. The sentiment appeared to clash with his well-known advocacy of a healthy distance between religion and government.

A few years ago, with the quote popping up increasingly in the mass media (including Rush Limbaugh's daily radio show), Robert S. Alley, professor emeritus at the University of Richmond and author of James Madison on Religious Liberty, undertook a dogged effort to track it down. Enlisting the help of the editors of The Papers of James Madison at the University of Virginia, Alley scoured reams of documents, books and writings. After coming up empty-handed, the Madison scholar concluded that the quote was probably fictional.

Sci_Fidelity · 10-10-2003, 04:17 PM

O'Reilly confuses me. I saw one of his shows where he admonished some fundy as being a "religious fanatic" for trying to inject his views in to secular society. The issue was gays adopting children.

So does Bill want a theocracy, or just more influence of religion in everyday life?

StrictSeparationist · 10-10-2003, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Maturin
You betcha! That Madison quote is bogus. Even Barton is compelled to admit that the quote is "unconfirmed."

That Barton article you link to is absolutely ridiculous. In several cases, he admits that the quotes were attributed completely incorrectly or in one case, that he excerpted the real subject of a sentance and thus changed the meaning from praise for the Virginia Bill for Religious Liberty to praise for Christianity! He puts himself forward as a serious scholar, but this man is so clearly a fraud and a Liar For Christ that he has no business being anywhere but a pulpit.

JERDOG · 10-10-2003, 06:46 PM

Have you guys heard his strawman argument on what a secularist is?

GaryP · 10-10-2003, 07:07 PM

O'Reilly had the president of the FreedomFrom Religion foundation a few months ago.

He kept insisting that God is in the Constitution!!

His "extensive research" apparenty did not include reading the US's founding document!

hezekiah jones · 10-10-2003, 11:06 PM

O'Reilly is such a feckless stooge.

And isn't David Barton Zweitefuhrer of the Texas Republican Party? Ick.

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10-10-2003, 03:23 PM	#4
JERDOG Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Lousyana with the best politicians money can buy. Posts: 944	Hum, Bill is claiming to have the letters from madison to Jefferson ( I think). However he has not shown the proof, only the assertion. Does anyone know where we can see the letters that were written in full?

10-10-2003, 04:17 PM	#6
Sci_Fidelity Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 595	O'Reilly confuses me. I saw one of his shows where he admonished some fundy as being a "religious fanatic" for trying to inject his views in to secular society. The issue was gays adopting children. So does Bill want a theocracy, or just more influence of religion in everyday life?

10-10-2003, 06:46 PM	#8
JERDOG Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Lousyana with the best politicians money can buy. Posts: 944	Have you guys heard his strawman argument on what a secularist is?

10-10-2003, 07:07 PM	#9
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	O'Reilly had the president of the FreedomFrom Religion foundation a few months ago. He kept insisting that God is in the Constitution!! His "extensive research" apparenty did not include reading the US's founding document!

10-10-2003, 11:06 PM	#10
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	O'Reilly is such a feckless stooge. And isn't David Barton Zweitefuhrer of the Texas Republican Party? Ick.

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