Clutch

Well, according to your view, the probability is 1, right? <iterate knowing winkies indefinitely...>

Elf

Elf: First I'd like to apologize to Dr.Retard for considering that he might agree with the argument he posted. My reference to it was a call for clarification. I found it hard to believe that anyone could agree with that statement.

I ask again for further clarification on the terms 'should', & 'special'; so that I might answer Dr.R's plea.
I would also like to add that retardation can be a good thing, like in a gasoline powered engine when the spark is retarded for better combustion.

Dear Clutch,
No defect sir, I have not made a point as of yet. In an attempt to stave off endless strawman arguments I have asked for a consensus of agreement concerning what existence is, what we can consider real. I have asked questions, because I believe that is where inquiry and science begins. I have observed many an interesting discussion destroyed by strawman arguments on this forum through the years. I don't wish to waste my time that way.

I quote my earlier post

Elf: To start things off I offer a few quotes from some of you:

Clutch poses: Elf: Clutch, I assume you do believe this statement. Can you please define the qualities of the existence you refer to?

Elf:and yet another question: Does anyone DISAGREE with the statement made by Albert Einstein I quoted in "If anything is special, it's Conscious Intelligence"?

"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the 'Universe,'
a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest
a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison
by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. "
Albert Einstein

Elf: I think the basic questions I have asked must be hammered out before any meaningful discussion of why I believe in G-d, & how it pertains to the Anthropic Principle, can begin. Sincerely ~Elf~ PS I shall be gone Geocaching the rest of the day...
http://www.geocaching.com/ E

Clutch

Maybe this is too subtle for me. What are "qualities of existence"?

I'm going way out on a limb and saying, "There are conscious agents". If you think there is some serious issue of ambiguity there, you should explain why, clearly and carefully.

Elf

Dear Clutch,

Would it help if I asked what the parameters of existence are for the conscious embodied agents? How do you or we define existence further than having bodies and consciousness.



I have asked a series of questions about what might be real, have existence or unreal-don't exist, that we may define existence and reality before we begin to apply the Anthropic princible further.

Here they are again: But how do we define existence? (1) That which is physical in that it has some form of objectively observable persistence, or replacability that can be experienced by self and others?

(2) A measurable force or mass?
Did X-Rays exist before 1895? How can we prove that?

(3) Is an idea real? Do ideas exist? It can be shared, thus replicated by others.

(4) Is the light within our dreams real? I am able to speak of it because I have relative certainty that each of you also experience the phenomenon of light within one's dreams. We can even measure the electrical impulses of dreams traveling across our brains. Does that make the light within our dreams real? Real what?

(5) Is Love real? Does Love exist? or is it the scientifically demonstrated phenomenon of Phenyl Ethyl Amine intoxication? Not more real than MMDA intoxication? Does measuring P.E.A. make Love a reality? Because then it is objective and not subjective?

(6) Is intention real? Can it be said that Intention has existence?

Certainly it is easy to see that each of our posts & this very forum, resulted directly from our collective and individual intention to communicate.

Here is Merriam Webster's online response to 'Exist'
ex·ist
Pronunciation: ig-'zist
Function: intransitive verb
Etymology: Latin exsistere to come into being, exist, from ex- + sistere to stand, stop; akin to Latin stare to stand -- more at STAND
Date: 1602
1 a : to have real being whether material or spiritual <did unicorns exist> <the largest galaxy known to exist> b : to have being in a specified place or with respect to understood limitations or conditions <strange ideas existed in his mind>
2 : to continue to be <racism still exists in society>
3 a : to have life or the functions of vitality <we cannot exist without oxygen> b : to live at an inferior level or under adverse circumstances <the hungry existing from day to day>

I am a lone Elf in hostile territory, preparing to share what I consider to be important knowledge about the nature of our existence. Is it too much to ask for clarification on the parameters of existence that this forum will accept as true?
Sincerely, ~Elf~

Clutch

Er... yes, if you don't know what "parameters" means.

Anyhow, I explained that what I mean is this:

There are some conscious agents.

If you intend to take issue with this claim, feel free to argue against it. If you intend simply to strew around some half-or-less-understood terminology, count me out.

Elf

Clutch states: Er... yes, if you don't know what "parameters" means.

Elf answers: I do know what parameters means to me and the general use of the word.. Here again is Webster's: I used parameters in the sense of 2 :any of a set of physical properties whose values determine the characteristics or behavior of something. & 3 :something represented by a parameter : a characteristic element; broadly : CHARACTERISTIC, ELEMENT, FACTOR

You asked me to address issues of ambiguity carefully. I have asked a series of questions to address that ambiguity. I am met with an apparent unwillingness to commit to any definition of what existence is. Will no one answer the simple questions I put forth? Why not? You are many, I am but one. If we have to resort to a dictionary for each and every word used we may never get anywhere. Can it be that you don't know what constitutes the existence of the conscious embodied agents that we are? To avoid strawman arguments, since I am a visitor to your your forum, I will accept your description of our shared reality if I may know what it is. I doubt seriously that my questions are too obtuse for you. Why are you reluctant to commit to what may or may not exist? Or what state that existence may take.

Main Entry: pa·ram·e·ter
Pronunciation: p&-'ram-&-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from para- + Greek metron measure -- more at MEASURE
Date: 1656
1 a : an arbitrary constant whose value characterizes a member of a system (as a family of curves); also : a quantity (as a mean or variance) that describes a statistical population b : an independent variable used to express the coordinates of a variable point and functions of them -- compare PARAMETRIC EQUATION
2 : any of a set of physical properties whose values determine the characteristics or behavior of something<parameters of the atmosphere such as temperature, pressure, and density>
3 : something represented by a parameter : a characteristic element; broadly : CHARACTERISTIC, ELEMENT, FACTOR <political dissent as a parameter of modern life>
4 : LIMIT, BOUNDARY -- usually used in plural <the parameters of science fiction>
Please somone, be brave and try and answer the questions I put forth. Sincerely, Elf

Elf

I am confronted with a group of very intelligent people, (I believe)who consider themselves on the whole, freethinkers. Who do not necessarily hold the same opinion about what might exist as the general populace or me.

As an example I quote Merriam Webster on exist 1 a : to have real being whether material or spiritual <did unicorns exist> <the largest galaxy known to exist> b : to have being in a specified place or with respect to understood limitations or conditions <strange ideas existed in his mind>

Webster doesn't see a problem with a real spiritual being. Do the people on this forum agree or disagree? again Webster shows that an idea can exist. Do the people on this forum agree or disagree? Simple really.
Regards, ~Elf~

John Page

Try turning on your light and using your keyboard to move North, South, East, West or Up and Down. Watch out for the Dwarves with sharp knives.

I agree providing you start with the assumption/definition "Everything is a part of reality". For example, I do not believe that elves and fairies have a physical correlate and remain (real) confabulations.

Cheers, John

Wiploc

You come across as a pettyfogger, someone reveling in complexity for complexity's sake, someone who wants people to work hard guessing what his point is so that he can say, "Wrongo!"


Much better! Now we have some idea what you're after. (And now you are getting responses. This lesson can serve you well the rest of your life. You can stop any conversation with an obstructive question, whereas you can facilitate conversation with an answer.)

My answers (and I'm still guessing what you want, but at least now I have something to base my guess on, and I don't have to write you a treatise):

1. Anything that exists is real.

2. Nothing exists that doesn't exist in a location and time.

3. Unicorns aren't real.

4. Ideas are real.

Does any of that address what you were asking?
crc

malpensante

elf & wiploc:

david deutsch, in his book "the fabric of reality" talks about a "criterion for reality", which is this:

if, according to the simplest explanation, an entity is complex and autonomous, then that entity is real.

or, in more common terms: if it "kicks back", it exists.

abstract entities which fulfill this condition, according to this criterion, do exist.