Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pug846 · 09-12-2002, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark_Chid:


Yes, you are wrong. The anus is not designed for a penis and hence is far more likely to bleed. The virus finds it far easier to enter the bloodstream that way. In Africa one of the reasons hetewrosexual AIDS is so common is the idiotic notion that yound girls are 'safe', when of course they are far more likely to bleed during intercourse, which is the worst thing that can happen!

It�s my understanding that there really isn�t any risk of bleeding during homosexual intercourse. Can you point me somewhere that back�s up your assertion that bleeding during anal sex is what makes (some) HIV strains more likely to be spread during anal intercourse?

Dr Rick · 09-12-2002, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amen-Moses:
HIV is not a single virus, we don't know where it came from or when but some Northern European populations carry indicators for the virus that hints at it having been around in Europe sometime in the distant past (some investigators are looking at plague outbreaks in the middle ages as maybe having been assisted in part by the prevalence of HIV, i.e those most affected by HIV having a reduced ability to fight against a variety of diseases that became epidemics).

The most prevalent variant of HIV is the one ravaging Africa, this is the most original strain that we can identify at present although it could have been introduced into Africa sometime in the 18th or 19th centuries. This variant is almost wholly spread by heterosexual sex and is not easily spread anally.

The second most prevalent is the second variant identified and is a mutation of the original that occured sometime in the late sixties or early seventies, this mutation seems to have occured in a single individual who either emigrated to the US or who visited. This mutated variant is longer lasting outside the body and particularly likes anal transmission, it is also more virulent that the first strain and causes AIDs faster.

There are around 2 or 3 other strains which have either mutated from the original strain or the second strain but at present the 2nd strain is the most virulent of the lot.

So in conclusion we should stop talking about AIDs as a single entity and start specifying which HIV strain we are talking about as they are all different!

Amen-Moses

There are some 30 or so strains of HIV (the virus that causes AIDS), called clades, owing to it's extremely high replications and mutation rates.

They all cause AIDS, and they are all treated the same way, and they all can kill. I know of no data that one clade has a predilection for anal transmission or can survive outside of the body more than another.

If you have some, would you please post it?

Thanks,
Rick

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]

vixstile · 09-12-2002, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus:
Now I know that's not right. Aids has only been on the human scene for a short time. it has not always been equally prevalent.

As for your suggestion that gays are more promiscuous, have you any evidence?

I didn't mean it always existed. I mean there was never any break from the gay community into the strait community.

Evidence? Common sense.

Mark_Chid · 09-12-2002, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pug846:


It�s my understanding that there really isn�t any risk of bleeding during homosexual intercourse. Can you point me somewhere that back�s up your assertion that bleeding during anal sex is what makes (some) HIV strains more likely to be spread during anal intercourse?

There does not need to be significant bleeding. Small ruptures in the lining are common and the lining is thinner and aids transmission.

AIDS spread faster amongst promiscuous homsexuals than any other group in the West - there must be a reason for this - and this reason is the relative ease of transmission through unprotected anal sex - also a great way to spread Hepatitis.

vixstile · 09-12-2002, 02:41 PM

Its also worth pointing out that, there needs to be no tearing for HIV contraction during anal sex. The entire length of your intestines are designed to absorb.

Viti · 09-12-2002, 02:43 PM

Good point vixstile, that is why suppository medicines work so quickly (and why some people "back door" recreational drugs)

Mark_Chid · 09-12-2002, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vixstile:
Its also worth pointing out that, there needs to be no tearing for HIV contraction during anal sex. The entire length of your intestines are designed to absorb.

"Studies of homosexual men have shown consistently that the receptive partner in anal intercourse is at the highest risk of HIV infection and that risk is strongly related to the number of male sexual partners.(63-65) The efficiency of transmission to the receptive partner during anal intercourse may be explained by the fact that viral access to the bloodstream through small tears in the rectal mucosa may be more common with this practice than with other types of sexual intercourse. Trauma is not necessary for transmission, however, as direct infection of bowel mucosal cells has been observed.(66) The layer of endothelial cells in the rectum is thinner than in the vagina, and although the target cells for infection have not been determined, lymphocytes that could act as targets for HIV are plentiful in rectal mucosa, and Langerhans cells are found throughout squamous-cell epithelial tissue"

<a href="http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite.jsp?page=kb-07-02-01#" target="_blank">http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite.jsp?page=kb-07-02-01#</a>

Mark_Chid · 09-12-2002, 02:50 PM

Table 1 on that last page I linked to shows that receptive anal sex is up to 20 times more dangerous than infective vaginal sex

Since condoms are only 97% effective this means that unprotected vaginal sex is only marginally more risky that anal sex WITH a condom!

Amen-Moses · 09-12-2002, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marz Blak:
Amen-Moses:

You seem to know a lot about HIV. What about the strain(s) prevalent in southeast/eastern Asia and Haiti? Are they more closely related to the "heterosexual" strains (quotes because I know it is an oversimplification) prevalent in Africa, or the "homosexual" strains prevalent in the US/Europe (that is, assuming that the US/European prevalent strains are related)?

Here is a good starting point:

<a href="http://www.avert.org/hivtypes.htm" target="_blank">http://www.avert.org/hivtypes.htm</a>

I underestimated becasue I failed to take into account all the subtypes btw.

Amen-Moses

RoddyM · 09-12-2002, 11:59 PM

I figure that HIV/AIDS is a socio-political tool much like global warming.

As far as I know, no HIV virus has ever been seen. Anti-body tests were reverse engineered to test positive for people who were defined as having AIDS. To have AIDS a person only has to test positive and have one or more conditions on a list. It's a long list.

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09-12-2002, 02:41 PM	#25
vixstile Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: California Posts: 2,029	Its also worth pointing out that, there needs to be no tearing for HIV contraction during anal sex. The entire length of your intestines are designed to absorb.

09-12-2002, 02:43 PM	#26
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Good point vixstile, that is why suppository medicines work so quickly (and why some people "back door" recreational drugs)

09-12-2002, 02:50 PM	#28
Mark_Chid Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Auc kland, NZ Posts: 253	Table 1 on that last page I linked to shows that receptive anal sex is up to 20 times more dangerous than infective vaginal sex Since condoms are only 97% effective this means that unprotected vaginal sex is only marginally more risky that anal sex WITH a condom!

09-12-2002, 11:59 PM	#30
RoddyM Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 183	I figure that HIV/AIDS is a socio-political tool much like global warming. As far as I know, no HIV virus has ever been seen. Anti-body tests were reverse engineered to test positive for people who were defined as having AIDS. To have AIDS a person only has to test positive and have one or more conditions on a list. It's a long list.

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