Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Beleg_Strongbow · 06-23-2003, 05:29 PM

My mum forces me to go to bible camp, but luckily it's my last year. I am planning to behave for the most part, but I want to compile a list of, well, let's say bad bible verses, like killing babies, mass murder, etc. I'm going to ask one of my councillers to "explain" them to me, and see how they justify it. Any suggestions on vereses I could add?

yguy · 06-23-2003, 05:47 PM

My personal favorite is Judges 11:29, where Jephthah, apparently under the influence of the spirit of the Lord, makes a vow which ends up obligating him to kill his own daughter, if the KJV is to be believed. I've never encountered a Christian who could reconcile that one to my satisfaction.

You might also ask them how they know that Revelations (or any other book) belongs in the Bible, and that for instance the Book of Enoch - which is referenced in the Epistle of Jude - does not.

thebeave · 06-23-2003, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beleg_Strongbow
My mum forces me to go to bible camp, but luckily it's my last year. I am planning to behave for the most part, but I want to compile a list of, well, let's say bad bible verses, like killing babies, mass murder, etc. I'm going to ask one of my councillers to "explain" them to me, and see how they justify it. Any suggestions on vereses I could add?

Ooooh boy! You do that and you will really see some fireworks at Bible Camp this year!

Go check out Skeptics Annotated Bible for some real gems. The hard part is keeping your list to under 100.

SLD · 06-23-2003, 06:05 PM

I would get the discussion going on a big debate in Christendom: Faith v. Works. Either you are saved by works or faith, which is it?

Here's some good faith quotes:

Quote:

Mk.16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Jn.3:18, 36
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Acts 16:30-31
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Rom.1:16-17
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth .... As it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Rom.3:20
"By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."

Rom.3:28
"A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Rom.4:2
"For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory?"

Rom.4:13
"For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."

Rom.5:1
"Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Gal.2:16
"A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

Gal.3:11-12
"The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith."

Eph.2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

and here's some good works quotes:

Quote:

Ps.62:12
"For you render to each one according to his works."

Jer.17:10
"I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

Mt.12:37
"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

Mt.16:27
"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

Mt.19:17
"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Lk.10:26-28
"He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

Jn.5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Rom.2:6, 13
"Who 'will render to each one according to his deeds'. For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified."

2 Cor.5:10
"For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

2 Cor.11:15
"Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works."

Jas.2:14
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"

Jas.2:17
"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Jas.2:21-25
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

1 Pet.1:17
"The Father, who without pariality judges according to each one's work."

When they start talking about faith, say, "Wait a minute, I recall another passage, let me see what was it. oohh yeah," and quote off a good works passage and then say, I'm confused. Keep doing this and they'll expel you. What would your parents do to you if you were expelled?

Of course you must let us know what happens.

SLD

Bugs · 06-23-2003, 06:06 PM

Why don�t you just keep asking them how they know the bible is true? Why should you believe this 2000 year old (plus) book? That�s always the thing I can never understand. Why believe this stuff?

You won�t win many friends that way, of course.

Beleg_Strongbow · 06-23-2003, 06:12 PM

You see, I'm not allowed to debate with the, at all!

But I figure I can at least ask questions about "God's Word". Most of them aren't smart enough to debate with anyway.

Bugs · 06-23-2003, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beleg_Strongbow
You see, I'm not allowed to debate with the, at all!

That�s the only weapon they have � stifle questions! Console yourself with the knowledge that their fairy tale is so feeble they are scared stiff of anyone who thinks. Make them feel as uncomfortable as hell.

athee · 06-23-2003, 08:34 PM

Phooey ... you're not allowed to debate with them, because they have nothing to stand on except an embellished mistranslation of some cobbled together fables. Since all the fun is going to be taken away from you (the debate), I'd suggest getting some sleep.

=OR=, if you can dare to make it fun, there's always the heckling of the teacher, the rolling of the eyes, the hushed "yea right", the obscene t-shirt with a dude and his middle finger

, like I did, but then again I was trying to get thrown out of Sunday school at the time. I had to say to my mom that I was going to get excommunicated to finally get out of it (age 13).

I was really a good kid, but I f#ck!ng hated church. You could have beat the crap out of me and I would still have fought tooth and nail each sunday. Eventually my mom gave up.

Enjoy camp!!! (ahh to be a kid atheist again ...)

Ispikes · 06-24-2003, 05:33 AM

One thing that led me to realise I was losing my faith came from a debate I had in a bible camp.

We were allowed to ask questions about christianity and I asked about
- Problem of Evil: Why? What about satan?
-How is hell just if it is eternal?
-Evolution
- (an odd one) how is Jesus a desendant of David? The lineages only trace Josephs "ancestory" and Joseph wasn't his father.....

I got in to an etended argument with the pastor about hell and he eventually pulled rank to stop me pressing the issue

Although it wasn't supposed to be a debate, just questions I kept raising my hand and questioning his answers.

RufusAtticus · 06-24-2003, 06:36 AM

Please please please ask them,

If God made man from dirt, why is there still dirt?

I've been wanting to ask that for a few months now.

06-23-2003, 05:29 PM	#1
Beleg_Strongbow Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada Posts: 233	Well, I'm off to bible camp in a week. My mum forces me to go to bible camp, but luckily it's my last year. I am planning to behave for the most part, but I want to compile a list of, well, let's say bad bible verses, like killing babies, mass murder, etc. I'm going to ask one of my councillers to "explain" them to me, and see how they justify it. Any suggestions on vereses I could add?

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06-23-2003, 05:47 PM	#2
yguy Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,199	My personal favorite is Judges 11:29, where Jephthah, apparently under the influence of the spirit of the Lord, makes a vow which ends up obligating him to kill his own daughter, if the KJV is to be believed. I've never encountered a Christian who could reconcile that one to my satisfaction. You might also ask them how they know that Revelations (or any other book) belongs in the Bible, and that for instance the Book of Enoch - which is referenced in the Epistle of Jude - does not.

06-23-2003, 06:06 PM	#5
Bugs Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 45	Why don�t you just keep asking them how they know the bible is true? Why should you believe this 2000 year old (plus) book? That�s always the thing I can never understand. Why believe this stuff? You won�t win many friends that way, of course.

06-23-2003, 06:12 PM	#6
Beleg_Strongbow Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada Posts: 233	You see, I'm not allowed to debate with the, at all! But I figure I can at least ask questions about "God's Word". Most of them aren't smart enough to debate with anyway.

06-23-2003, 08:34 PM	#8
athee Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 266	Phooey ... you're not allowed to debate with them, because they have nothing to stand on except an embellished mistranslation of some cobbled together fables. Since all the fun is going to be taken away from you (the debate), I'd suggest getting some sleep. =OR=, if you can dare to make it fun, there's always the heckling of the teacher, the rolling of the eyes, the hushed "yea right", the obscene t-shirt with a dude and his middle finger , like I did, but then again I was trying to get thrown out of Sunday school at the time. I had to say to my mom that I was going to get excommunicated to finally get out of it (age 13). I was really a good kid, but I f#ck!ng hated church. You could have beat the crap out of me and I would still have fought tooth and nail each sunday. Eventually my mom gave up. Enjoy camp!!! (ahh to be a kid atheist again ...)

06-24-2003, 05:33 AM	#9
Ispikes Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Nowhere interesting Posts: 164	One thing that led me to realise I was losing my faith came from a debate I had in a bible camp. We were allowed to ask questions about christianity and I asked about - Problem of Evil: Why? What about satan? -How is hell just if it is eternal? -Evolution - (an odd one) how is Jesus a desendant of David? The lineages only trace Josephs "ancestory" and Joseph wasn't his father..... I got in to an etended argument with the pastor about hell and he eventually pulled rank to stop me pressing the issue Although it wasn't supposed to be a debate, just questions I kept raising my hand and questioning his answers.

06-24-2003, 06:36 AM	#10
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Please please please ask them, If God made man from dirt, why is there still dirt? I've been wanting to ask that for a few months now.

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