Keith

We can't know which one is true unless God reveals it to us personally.

I mean that grace is the way God intervenes in a person's life to save him/her. Without God's grace, I wouldn't know God, and I wouldn't see myself as I really am. Grace is a gift. It cannot be earned. God has chosen who will receive grace and who will not. There is nothing that anyone can do to insure that they will receive grace. It is given to those whom God wills to give it to.

Keith

Sue Sponte

I don't look down on anyone for their beliefs, just their behavior.

Probably due to the fact that you are a theist, Keith, this statement reveals an ignorance of life as an atheist. Atheists would be very content if no one worried about the existence of god, as they don't. But that isn't reality. Reality is a number of family members, friends and acquaintences who presume that something horrible is going to happen to you for an eternity because of your theologic beliefs. Thus, it matters because there are theists (not all, mind you) that look down on atheists, or feel "sorrow" or "sympathy" based on a mindset that the atheist does not believe in.

Give some thought to this, and perhaps you'll garner some empathy for atheists. Putting the shoe on the other foot, consider what it would be like if people in your life raised you facing eternal damnation because of your beliefs. In that context, would the issue matter to you?

They can't. And the same reasoning applies equally to Christianity as "pseudo-Christian religions". Each has a different belief set, most or all of which cannot be true. You've chosen one belief set, which may be wrong. Atheists have chosen another. If you believe that atheists will be damned in an afterlife for that choice, just be cognizant of the fact that the atheists do not share that view when trying to understand them.

With all due respect, that you believe this does not make it true. It is a self-fulfilling belief set that you have accepted. Eliminate your belief in god, and there is nothing to these statements.

Another point for consideration is a common theme raised throughout your posts, which I generally found interesting and rational. Because you personally need a belief set that provides answers to all theoreticals, you presume that others do. Many people accept the fact that humans cannot currently explain all phenomena, without the need to engage in theologic precepts to reach closure. Historically, many things we take as a scientific given today were at one time unknown, and were the subject of theologic theories. In the same manner, the future will likely answer many of the questions currently pondered. That we do not know the answer at this time alone does not lead me to conclude that there must be a superbeing to explain the unknown: it simply means that humans don't currently know the answer.

As for morality, you raise interesting questions as to why the majority of humans believe in a god. There are numerous reasons, some of which others have already noted. But consider that morality may simply be a learned condition, explainable by psychological and sociological principles. If I touch fire, I learn it is hot and don't do it again. Similarly, society has learned, and passed on to its kin, to shun acts that are harmful to society (harm to others, etc.). That morality exists does not necessarily require the existence of a god or theologic concepts.

John Page

It has personally been revealed to me that there is no god to reveal anything to me personally.
Could this "grace" be psychosomatic, by any chance?
I think atheism gives you freedom to think outside your "cultural box".

Cheers, John

Keith

Great post, Sue. Assuming you and others who have responded to this are being truthful in saying that they don't look down on theists, you must know from reading these discussions that atheists as a group can be very arrogant, condescending, and critical of the beliefs of theists. You see the way theists are routinely mocked, laughed at, and rudely treated by atheists on these discussion boards. This kind of behaviour clashes with the views atheists claim to have.

I was once an atheist. Atheists actually seem thoroughly obsessed with the issue of God. When I was an atheist, I fully expected to hear theists tell me that I was going to hell! I was quite used to hearing it. If you think you are being persecuted for your beliefs, just try being openly atheistic in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. Again, the intense fixation on the issue of God is, for atheists, a bit strange...seemingly at odds with what they claim to believe. For a group that says they see no reason to believe in gods, atheists are really very much into the whole god issue. Is this not obvious?

Your hope that the future will provide the answers you seek is a good thing, but this is what Christians call "faith." Most atheists and agnostics won't readily admit to living by faith to any degree at all. Here, you seem to be the rare exception.

Yes, morality exists, but is there one ultimate objective morality, or is morality different for everyone? If an ultimate objective standard for morality exists, wouldn't that be something similar to what Christians call God? If, on the other hand, there is no ultimate objective standard for morality, then we're left with moral relativism. If morality is relative, then all talk of morality is meaningless--it's like asking whether strawberry or chocolate ice cream is better.

Keith

Psycho Economist

All things equal I don't look down on theists, and it is natural. Science is a very counter-intuative way of looking at the world and it took millenia to hone, we're still working on it. On the other hand, I get frustrated when anyone beattifies their ignorance of science and logic in their attempts to prove their position. To your credit, I don't think you're guilty of doing that on this thread. That's why I'm sticking around.

Because peoples beilefs are mainfested in actions. When they're put in charge, their agendas become policies. When people want to subordinate religious liberties protected in the Constitution to their own beliefs, we will do what we can to stop them. Other than protecting our own freedom to be atheist, and ensuring that religious philosophy is not passed off as science, it doesn't.

You said: "I would describe most, but not all, non-Christian theistic religions as poor counterfeits of the real thing, which is Christianity." I put you on the spot intentionally. I would be curious to know which ones are counterfits. Sorry if I went about that in an innefficient way.

And plenty of Christian religions, too! How do you know which is true? The one that strikes a chord with you... the one that feels right?

I'm sorry that you wasted your time on it when it's something you weren't cut out for. Lemme guess... you left and then returned to the Presbyterian Church in America? (This sounds like their spiel.)

Psycho Economist

Not on the basis of their beliefs, but behavior as she said. Just to use a particular example... somebody comes in here, ignorant of American history, except what he's read in apologist revisions of it. He's bought, hook, line and sinker that this was founded "as a Christian nation" and attempts to tell us that our fighting for our rights is wrong because it offends the spirit in which those religious protections were written. He presents us with scholarship that ranges from the biased to the fraudulent and starts brazenly misrepresenting what he's said and what we've said when called on it. When we attempt to ignore him, he declares victory.

And it's not just politics. Well-meaning, accidental (and intentional) trolls do this in every forum. We don't give much respect to atheist trolls either. Same goes on any discussion board out there. Somebody who has a reasonable difference of opinion on the question of whether deities exist will get as much respect from us as a same-behaving atheist. It's just that the percentage of posts is maybe 65 - 10 - 15 - 10 for regularly contributing atheists, atheist trolls, theist trolls and regularly contributing believers respectively. Also, people who come here with something to prove and end up trolling don't tend to come back all that often (so-called drive-by posters), but there's a steady stream of people who do so.

Of course we seem obsessed with "the issue of God". Believers won't let us give it a rest. Some people go out looking for fights, but anyone who's an atheist is eventually going to be called on his beliefs whether belligerantly or politely. We didn't fabricate (to my knowledge, we haven't even made) the claim that we're the most hated religious minoritiy in America in some vain attempt to get sympathy.

Keith

In what way has it been personally revealed to you that there is no god? Wouldn't you need to be God to know that no gods exist?

Is that your goal--to obtain intellectual freedom from the mainstream views of your culture? If so, why is this important?

Keith

Psycho Economist

I don't know Mr. Page personally, but I think he may be yanking your chain.

On the other hand, one would not need to be a deity to know no deities exist. One wouldn't even have to be omniscient, a trait you ascribe to your god but is independent of divinity.

One would only have to have information that precludes the existance of deities as a category. We can play word games about what it means to be in the category of deities and consequently what (if anything) it would take to preclude their existance. But strictly speaking: no, one would not have to be your God to know.

Psycho Economist

Oh, before you go on about atheists being rude to Christians on this board, there's something I forgot about:

What happens when (resident or transient) atheist trolls meet (intentional or accidental) Christian trolls... We aren't luck enough for them to anihlate each other like matter and anti-matter. Instead they generate a huge amount of waste on the board trying to one-up each other.

(This doesn't actually happen all that often, though. The atheist trolls ususally don't weigh into "theist / atheist" discussions, opting instead to goad other atheists in the lower fora.)

John Page

By the workings of my mind, same way it was revealed to you that there is a god.
LOL. No, and the proof is that no atheists are gods. (Unless there is a god that doesn't believe in itself - but this is nonsense because a god is supposed to be all knowing!!)

w.r.t. a theistic god all I have to do is comprehend:
a) religions and their definitions of god are the creations of mankind
b) mankind has the ability to create sustained belief in imaginary beings (santa, the bogey man, fairies etc.)
c) it is possible to analyze the concept of god and show that an "knowing, all seeing, ever present being etc." is impossible. Link to God Theorem There is no "how" for this to happen.

While not perfect, the above seems more reasonable to me than divine revelation.

No. My goal is to reach a consistent and comprehensive understanding of what and who I am in relation to reality.

Cheers, John