Toto

I think the "certain groups" she is referring to are groups who have been disrespectful towards Madalyn Murray O'Hare. Groups who were founded by people who were kicked out of American Atheists by Madalyn for not being sufficiently respectful towards Madalyn, who then stated publicly that Madalyn was the worst thing that ever happened to atheism, or that she was running an atheist cult. In other words, extremely petty personal issues based on old wounds that no one else cares about.

As an illustration of this general problem, for the past several years, American Atheists and the Atheist Alliance have held competing national conventions (on Easter Sunday, when you can get good rates on hotels), in spite of the pleas of people who are members of both to coordinate their conventions and work together.

But I don't see this sort of personal in-fighting as comparable to the public relations disaster that self-proclaimed Satanists could be, even if they say they are not True Satanists and are really godless.

Every organization that I know of has problems like this - it's not just that people who join an openly Atheistic organization are by definition those who would rather be right than be president.

But I think that Godless people need and deserve a better class of leadership - like you, Ron Garrett.

Autonemesis

Magick is ritualistic way of evoking positive thinking in the practitioner. The penis is usually the symbol of one's will, the ejaculate is a symbol of the will working on the world. Satanist's secret ceremonies typically involve ejaculating into a urn, and burying that urn near the object one wishes to affect. There are other rituals that involve coitus interruptus and other techniques that require a partner (same or opposite sex).

This is why they keep the ceremonies secret, because a straightforward description of them to the unitiated sounds silly and perverse. But if you're an initiate, it's all revealed to you a step at a time, in classic cult fashion, and by the time you get there, you're prepared to hear it and it is not shocking at all.

And I am not kidding about jerking off into a cup.

Toto

Did I say public relations disaster? Let me upgrade that to public relations debacle.
<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Given that most of the US gets its news from watching Jay Leno, what do you think he's going to do with that??

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

Autonemesis

Relax, Toto. They're secret rituals.

You want to see some "scary" ceremonies, go search Google for the phrase "pay lay ale". You won't view any of your Mormon acquaintances quite the same afterwards...

Alonzo Fyfe

I do think that there comes a time to let old fights fade into the past. Good or bad, a course has been set, and the thing to do now is to do the best we can under the circumstances.

In some cases, this can be like the position Admiral Yamamoto of Japan was in when the government told him that they were going to take the Dutch East Indies.

He answered, in effect: This is the stupidest thing I ever heard, but if you are to have any chance at all of winning then you begin with a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.

As for us, the letter has been written, and the decision has been made. Now, it is time to ask, "Given the circumstances, what is the best we can do?"

god-free-pen

I too am very concerned about the appearance of Satanists in the March. The general public is not going to be willing to discern the fine esoteric points of ideology between different types of Satanists, but will paint us all with one brush. I communicated my concern to American Atheists but never received an answer.

My problem with it is this:

Any person who calls himself a "Satanist" is trying to tell me something other than what would appear on the surface. This message will be obvious in the parade just as my atheism will be obvious.

Are they appearing as atheists? or as Satanists??? Please let them make their statement with their own parade if they wish to promote Satanism. As atheists I would be proud to march with them. Maybe a simple statement from their organization that nothing they would do would bring discredit on atheists would alleviate concerns.

Autonemesis

It's completely unreasonable to ask Satanists or anyone else to promise that a hostile 3rd party won't act badly.

See <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=54&t=000028" target="_blank">this thread</a> and then tell me Satanists are going to be able to do anything at the march that'll "bring" any more "discredit on atheists" than that would. I'd really like to know what Satanists can do that can top missus_gumby and the others.

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]</p>

god-free-pen

Of course it's unreasonable to expect an INDIVIDUAL to act in a certain way but I thought a statement from the ORGANIZATION, their aims, etc; the statement they wish to make at the march would be in order.

As for Missus-Gumby's and others treatment of Jezus pictures, I'm totally willing to identify myself with this groups' actions but not with the actions of Satanists.

4th Generation Atheist

Um, we're talking about a large march on public property in the capitol of the Union; there is no way to prevent anyone or any group from showing up, short of kidnapping and imprisonment.

A decision can be made concerning which groups' endorsements will be accepted and advertised, and if there's a parade with "registered" floats or displays, which groups are allowed to register. This decision seems to have been made already and rests with the march organizers.

You can bank on it that unpopular groups or people we wouldn't want to be associated with will show up. You can bank on it, for that matter, that there will be counterdemonstrators, and that these will say inflammatory things. There always are, and they always do. The best reponse is twofold: 1) get as many "mainstream" nontheists (and supporters) as possible to show up, so that the overwhelming majority of those present are on "our side" and carrying the desired dominant message, and 2) keep your temper in check when the opposition calls us immoral or bad patriots or whatever. There really is no other way. This second, by the way, is way easier with some tens of thousands of your supporters directly behind you. Way easy to laugh the bullshit off then! Let's quit worrying and just do this thing.

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: 4th Generation Atheist ]</p>

Buffman

Ron Garrett

Somewhat depressing, isn't it? Just because one adopts the label of "Atheist," it doesn't mean that they are suddenly more capable of critical reasoning based on the most accurate knowledge available.

I recently had a non-believer accuse me of being "over-the-hill" when it came to atheistic, militant, activism. (i.e: Just shut-up and get out of the way while we march and prove to the world that we aren't going to just let the theistic zealots walk all over us.)

He is frustrated. Just like so many Americans were frustrated by 9/11 and driven to acts of so-called Patriotism. They need to do something. To strike back any way they can. They are of the "some action is better than no action" school of emotionalism.

Unfortunately they are atheistic amateurs playing with theistic professionals...and the timing is a mid-term elections disaster...or will be when the professional Christian spin doctors get through with it. Why was the March pushed back to 2 Nov.? That pre-election weekend will be used to further frighten the undecided theists to vote for the super-security conscious Conservatives who will bring God's moral leadership back to America and rid it of the liberal, ACLU loving, Atheists. Communists and Satanists who took God, prayer and morality out of our national public square and schools and set our children to killing one another. This Atheist March is going to take pressure off the "Christian Nation" government and the Muslim extremists and give the radical right a live local target to validate all the propaganda that they have taken two decades to put in place. The Atheist March is a "God-send"
for the radical Christian right.

I recommend that everyone review the URL's, thoroughly, that I have posted in:

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000529" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000529</a>

These are the professional, religious/conservative, organizations that will do "all" the general public reporting on the March. They are the ones who will spin it to their advantage.

Now read the "capsaicin67" (11:41 AM ) post in the following string. That is exactly the kind of professional organization that will be required before any meaningful changes can be made.

<a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000525&p=" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000525&p=</a>

Signed: Over-the-Hill <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />