Freethought & Rationalism Archive

peacenik · 02-20-2003, 12:44 PM

Those who favor immediate military action have done so because they fear that if we fail to take out Saddam immediately, he is likely sale WMD to al-Qaida, who will then sneak them into the U.S. and carry out another September 11th style attack. Athough I believe that this reasoning is extremely flawed, I am going to assume that it is correct for the sake of this particular poll which I believe asks a difficult question that I believe must be answered before we go to war with Iraq.

The U.N. has estimated that a war in Iraq would result in 500,000 civilian casualties. Now even if we assume (1) that this estimate is high and there will only be 250,000 casualties and 100,000 of those civilians are killed, and (2) that this action prevents an attack by al-Qaida that would have been TEN TIMES deadlier than September 11(which would roughly equal 30,000 U.S. civilian deaths); we still must ask whether American life is that much more valuable than Iraqi life.

So I ask you the following question.

How would you rate the comparable value of American and Iraqi life?

Larmer · 02-20-2003, 12:59 PM

Been quite a while since I posted on these boards, but though I'd come back....

Well, since I'm not an American, I don't think an American life is more valuable than any other life. Not any less either.

On some of the other boards I'm on, this subject has been brought up many times. Unfortunately, it's usually raised when an American truly does believe an American life is more valuable....

peacenik · 02-20-2003, 01:06 PM

I'm just trying to get others to ask this tough question that they may not have even considered. Sometimes people fall for propoganda without investigating the facts and don't realize what they're supporting. I believe that this may be the reason that so many Americans are so intent on going to war. However, polls that I have seen suggest that even a majority of Americans want to give the U.N. inspectors more time.

vixstile · 02-20-2003, 01:16 PM

I do value Americans more.

Just like I value my family more than my neighbors.

Just like I value my species more than other species

Just like I value the color Blue more that the color orange

Just like I value strawberries more than onions

Thats the thing about "value"; It's subjective.

Selsaral · 02-20-2003, 01:40 PM

Exactly. If a god came to you and said he was going to kill your wife, or some person you've never met or heard of from an unknown location, and demanded you choose one of the two, are you going to flip a coin because all lives are of equal value?

enemigo · 02-20-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Selsaral
Exactly. If a god came to you and said he was going to kill your wife, or some person you've never met or heard of from an unknown location, and demanded you choose one of the two, are you going to flip a coin because all lives are of equal value?

Why is the life of a random American that you've never met and know nothing about, more valuable than a random Iraqi that you've never met and know nothing about?

Do you value the lives of people from Michigan more than you value the lives of people from Oregon?

richard

peacenik · 02-20-2003, 02:39 PM

I find it interesting that those of you that have expressed your view that an American life is more valuable than an Iraqi life have been unable to express just how much more valuable an American life is than an Iraqi life by voting in my poll.

HaysooChreesto! · 02-20-2003, 03:05 PM

The poll is loaded. In a war, it is obvious that the lives on which one sides with are more important. If one doesn't wish to choose a side, then the poll can matter.
Because I'm an American, I find the lives of our soldiers and civilians to be more important to the endeavor in question. It's not really quantifiable though.
War is not an egalitarian effort and it's nothing to monkey around with. It must be fought decisively with the aim to win as quickly as possible.

Feather · 02-20-2003, 03:09 PM

Ahem. I voted in your poll, Peacenik.

I would add "all other things being equal" as a caveat. I don't condone purposefully assaulting civilians in Iraq in the imminent conflict, for example, because I don't think it's necessary. But strictly in terms of the poll, all other things being equal, I'd value the life of one American over any number of Iraqis.

My reasoning is this: it is more likely that the American contributes more positively and directly to that which assists me in my endeavours to pursue that which pleases me. And this is simply by virtue of the shared citizenship, of course.

Now, you can start adding all manner of "but what if" clauses--and that would almost certainly change my answer--but I would stick by my given answer otherwise.

vixstile · 02-20-2003, 03:17 PM

I don't think anyone is saying that Americans are more valuable in some non-biased/objective sense. Rather, people tend to be biased toward the things they are more familiar with. And there is nothing wrong with that.

View Poll Results: How do you rate the comparable value of American life to Iraqi life?
Taking an innocent life should never be an option, even if necessary to save others.	16	72.73%
Saving 1 American civilian is worth killing 1 Iraqi civilian if necessary.	3	13.64%
Saving 1 American civilian is is worth killing somewhere between 1 and 5 Iraqi civilians if necessary.	0	0%
Saving 1 American civilian is worth killing 5 Iraqi civilians if necessary.	0	0%
Saving 1 American civilian is worth killing more than 5 Iraqi civilians if necessary.	1	4.55%
Saving 1 American civilian is worth killing an infinite number of Iraqi civilians if necessary.	2	9.09%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

02-20-2003, 12:44 PM	#1
peacenik Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 331	How do we value human life? Is American life more valuable than an Iraqi life? Those who favor immediate military action have done so because they fear that if we fail to take out Saddam immediately, he is likely sale WMD to al-Qaida, who will then sneak them into the U.S. and carry out another September 11th style attack. Athough I believe that this reasoning is extremely flawed, I am going to assume that it is correct for the sake of this particular poll which I believe asks a difficult question that I believe must be answered before we go to war with Iraq. The U.N. has estimated that a war in Iraq would result in 500,000 civilian casualties. Now even if we assume (1) that this estimate is high and there will only be 250,000 casualties and 100,000 of those civilians are killed, and (2) that this action prevents an attack by al-Qaida that would have been TEN TIMES deadlier than September 11(which would roughly equal 30,000 U.S. civilian deaths); we still must ask whether American life is that much more valuable than Iraqi life. So I ask you the following question. How would you rate the comparable value of American and Iraqi life?

02-20-2003, 01:06 PM	#3
peacenik Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 331	Larmer I am an American, and I agree with you. I'm just trying to get others to ask this tough question that they may not have even considered. Sometimes people fall for propoganda without investigating the facts and don't realize what they're supporting. I believe that this may be the reason that so many Americans are so intent on going to war. However, polls that I have seen suggest that even a majority of Americans want to give the U.N. inspectors more time.

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02-20-2003, 12:59 PM	#2
Larmer Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 331	Been quite a while since I posted on these boards, but though I'd come back.... Well, since I'm not an American, I don't think an American life is more valuable than any other life. Not any less either. On some of the other boards I'm on, this subject has been brought up many times. Unfortunately, it's usually raised when an American truly does believe an American life is more valuable....

02-20-2003, 01:16 PM	#4
vixstile Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: California Posts: 2,029	I do value Americans more. Just like I value my family more than my neighbors. Just like I value my species more than other species Just like I value the color Blue more that the color orange Just like I value strawberries more than onions Thats the thing about "value"; It's subjective.

02-20-2003, 01:40 PM	#5
Selsaral Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan Posts: 3,095	Exactly. If a god came to you and said he was going to kill your wife, or some person you've never met or heard of from an unknown location, and demanded you choose one of the two, are you going to flip a coin because all lives are of equal value?

02-20-2003, 02:39 PM	#7
peacenik Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 331	I find it interesting that those of you that have expressed your view that an American life is more valuable than an Iraqi life have been unable to express just how much more valuable an American life is than an Iraqi life by voting in my poll.

02-20-2003, 03:05 PM	#8
HaysooChreesto! Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: SoCal USA Posts: 7,737	The poll is loaded. In a war, it is obvious that the lives on which one sides with are more important. If one doesn't wish to choose a side, then the poll can matter. Because I'm an American, I find the lives of our soldiers and civilians to be more important to the endeavor in question. It's not really quantifiable though. War is not an egalitarian effort and it's nothing to monkey around with. It must be fought decisively with the aim to win as quickly as possible.

02-20-2003, 03:09 PM	#9
Feather Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 1,827	Ahem. I voted in your poll, Peacenik. I would add "all other things being equal" as a caveat. I don't condone purposefully assaulting civilians in Iraq in the imminent conflict, for example, because I don't think it's necessary. But strictly in terms of the poll, all other things being equal, I'd value the life of one American over any number of Iraqis. My reasoning is this: it is more likely that the American contributes more positively and directly to that which assists me in my endeavours to pursue that which pleases me. And this is simply by virtue of the shared citizenship, of course. Now, you can start adding all manner of "but what if" clauses--and that would almost certainly change my answer--but I would stick by my given answer otherwise.

02-20-2003, 03:17 PM	#10
vixstile Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: California Posts: 2,029	I don't think anyone is saying that Americans are more valuable in some non-biased/objective sense. Rather, people tend to be biased toward the things they are more familiar with. And there is nothing wrong with that.

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