Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bloop · 10-31-2002, 01:06 AM

I know. I'll just let those edit messages remain there as a token of my frustration with putting that post together

Kama · 10-31-2002, 10:16 AM

Thanx bloop.

You forgot some piccies

It seems that John Stanmeyer sure likes MT

"Long periods of prayer in solitude occupy much of Mother Teresa's time at her mission's headquarters in downtown Calcutta. Her decades of service to the worlds needy show on the soles of her feet."

<a href="http://www.s2f.com/stanmeyer/mamat/mamat.html" target="_blank">http://www.s2f.com/stanmeyer/mamat/mamat.html</a>

"Maggots infest the heads of many as well as malnutrition, maleria, tuberculosis along with other deadly illness which plague the thousands of street people of Calcutta, India."

bbl.Thx again.
Arrowman ill worship you if you give that all true charity foundation

hinduwoman · 11-01-2002, 05:40 PM

Kama, you don't get it, do you?
You might think that MT's praying makes her holy; but people who donated thinking that it would help people in need do not consider her praying to be excuse enough.

Quote:

Maggots infest the heads of many as well as malnutrition, maleria, tuberculosis along with other deadly illness which plague the thousands of street people of Calcutta, India."

No doubt; but MT did NOT do anything to do away with these things; so it is a non-sequiter

lpetrich · 11-05-2002, 01:00 AM

I've thought of composing a conversation between St. Genevieve and Mother Teresa in Heaven to illustrate the Hume/Carrier thesis that reported miracles have become much rarer in recent centuries.

I'm not sure how to play it; here's a guess:

St. G. and MT have a conversation that drifts to their former lives on Earth, and St. G. describes some of the miracles she had worked.
MT comments that she wishes that she had had that gift, and she wonders why nobody else in her time seemed to have it.
Which perplexes St. G.

Gemma Therese · 11-05-2002, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
I've thought of composing a conversation between St. Genevieve and Mother Teresa in Heaven to illustrate the Hume/Carrier thesis that reported miracles have become much rarer in recent centuries.

I'm not sure how to play it; here's a guess:

St. G. and MT have a conversation that drifts to their former lives on Earth, and St. G. describes some of the miracles she had worked.
MT comments that she wishes that she had had that gift, and she wonders why nobody else in her time seemed to have it.
Which perplexes St. G.

Ever heard of Gemma Galgani ... Padre Pio ... Fatima???

Gemma Therese

Ronin · 11-05-2002, 04:30 AM

~ or Uri Geller ...John Edward...Sylvia Browne???

Bloop · 11-05-2002, 07:12 AM

Oh yes, our old dog was named Fatima. Not many miracles surrounding her though.

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Bloop ]

brighid · 11-05-2002, 07:45 AM

The biggest problem I have personally found with the Mother Teresa claims is that allegedly tending to the spiritual nature of the poor and dieing must include the continuance of their physical and mental suffering. I personally think it is cruel to allow a person to needlessly suffer physically and emotionally when it is possible to eliminate or eleviate that pain in order to make the remaining time on this Earth more bearable. I try to think of how I would want to be treated in such a situation. What if I were homeless, and dieing of some horrible disease? What if there was food the feed my starving body but it was withheld in order to increase my physical suffering because someone believed this would bring me closer to God? Would allowing me to starve actually have that effect, especially if I was born of a different faith or would it cause me to resent this God and damn him for allowing me to continue to suffer? Would I be likely to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior? If there was medicine that could quell the pain or even cure my illness so that I may live, and yet it was withheld so that I may continue to suffer for God � what would that do for my love of this foreign God? What if my bed was a dirty, cold, floor but it could be a warn, clean bed and it was withheld to extend my suffering? What if my wounds were left to fester when medical treatment could be given in order to increase my suffering for God? Would you allow someone to treat your child in this manner? Do the poor, indigent, sick and dieing men, women and children of India have the options you and I have? What voice do they have and do their weakened bodies and minds have the ability to speak out against this humiliation and inhumane, cruel and unusual punishment? Aren�t they being punished for being born into this circumstance?

If I were in that circumstance I would hope for the mercy and compassion of those who could help. I would hope for a warm meal, a soft bed, a salve to sooth my wounds even if only for a short period of time. I would hope that someone would give me the dignity of an end filled with as little pain as my condition warranted, perhaps a gentle touch � but not to be left to rot in a cess pool, infested with flies, filth and being injected with substances from dirty syringes that only made my condition worse through infection. Would I want my child to live like those children? Would I want my child to die this way? As a mother I would do all in my power to soothe my loved one, to minimize the pain, to comfort and love them in their last days. I would want to make that time as peaceful as possible and I would certainly NOT allow that person to suffer in needlessly disgusting conditions. I would not allow my family pet to die in such an indignant manner and I dare say any one with half a heart can actually believe that such circumstances are good or even worth of human dignity.

Wouldn�t it serve God�s mission more if these men and women were fed, clothed, given a clean, warm, safe place to sleep, to be cared for and have their wounds mended? Where is the compassion of Jesus in Mother Teresa�s actions? Did she actually help these men, women and children or did she simply collect the suffering, poor and dieing and increase their pain by withholding food, clothing, medicine and adequate shelter in her crusade to win souls for her God? Why can the cruelty of her actions NOT be seen? Put your place in that of one of those lepers, AIDS patients or orphans and then tell us that this would bring you closer to God.

Brighid

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]

hinduwoman · 11-05-2002, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese:


Ever heard of Gemma Galgani ... Padre Pio ... Fatima???

Gemma Therese

Ever heard of Ganesha drinking milk? <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

lpetrich · 11-05-2002, 06:52 PM

I checked out Gemma Therese's counterexamples:

Gemma Galgani:
Had stigmata. And had LOTS of visions. She had been very sickly, and she died at the age of 25. I wonder why she had been unable to cure herself and live a reasonably long and healthy life; St. Genevieve had clearly been a LOT better at self-preservation.

Padre Pio:
I will concede that he had allegedly cured some people; but his miracles are still not Genevieve meat. I also note that the Vatican had originally doubted PP's stigmata.

Fatima:
It is easy to reproduce the Miracle of Fatima.
Simply stare at the Sun.

11-05-2002, 07:12 AM	#87
Bloop Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Sweden Posts: 833	Oh yes, our old dog was named Fatima. Not many miracles surrounding her though. [ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Bloop ]</p>

11-05-2002, 07:45 AM	#88
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	The biggest problem I have personally found with the Mother Teresa claims is that allegedly tending to the spiritual nature of the poor and dieing must include the continuance of their physical and mental suffering. I personally think it is cruel to allow a person to needlessly suffer physically and emotionally when it is possible to eliminate or eleviate that pain in order to make the remaining time on this Earth more bearable. I try to think of how I would want to be treated in such a situation. What if I were homeless, and dieing of some horrible disease? What if there was food the feed my starving body but it was withheld in order to increase my physical suffering because someone believed this would bring me closer to God? Would allowing me to starve actually have that effect, especially if I was born of a different faith or would it cause me to resent this God and damn him for allowing me to continue to suffer? Would I be likely to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior? If there was medicine that could quell the pain or even cure my illness so that I may live, and yet it was withheld so that I may continue to suffer for God � what would that do for my love of this foreign God? What if my bed was a dirty, cold, floor but it could be a warn, clean bed and it was withheld to extend my suffering? What if my wounds were left to fester when medical treatment could be given in order to increase my suffering for God? Would you allow someone to treat your child in this manner? Do the poor, indigent, sick and dieing men, women and children of India have the options you and I have? What voice do they have and do their weakened bodies and minds have the ability to speak out against this humiliation and inhumane, cruel and unusual punishment? Aren�t they being punished for being born into this circumstance? If I were in that circumstance I would hope for the mercy and compassion of those who could help. I would hope for a warm meal, a soft bed, a salve to sooth my wounds even if only for a short period of time. I would hope that someone would give me the dignity of an end filled with as little pain as my condition warranted, perhaps a gentle touch � but not to be left to rot in a cess pool, infested with flies, filth and being injected with substances from dirty syringes that only made my condition worse through infection. Would I want my child to live like those children? Would I want my child to die this way? As a mother I would do all in my power to soothe my loved one, to minimize the pain, to comfort and love them in their last days. I would want to make that time as peaceful as possible and I would certainly NOT allow that person to suffer in needlessly disgusting conditions. I would not allow my family pet to die in such an indignant manner and I dare say any one with half a heart can actually believe that such circumstances are good or even worth of human dignity. Wouldn�t it serve God�s mission more if these men and women were fed, clothed, given a clean, warm, safe place to sleep, to be cared for and have their wounds mended? Where is the compassion of Jesus in Mother Teresa�s actions? Did she actually help these men, women and children or did she simply collect the suffering, poor and dieing and increase their pain by withholding food, clothing, medicine and adequate shelter in her crusade to win souls for her God? Why can the cruelty of her actions NOT be seen? Put your place in that of one of those lepers, AIDS patients or orphans and then tell us that this would bring you closer to God. Brighid [ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ] [ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>

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10-31-2002, 01:06 AM	#81
Bloop Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Sweden Posts: 833	I know. I'll just let those edit messages remain there as a token of my frustration with putting that post together

10-31-2002, 10:16 AM	#82
Kama Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: swarga Posts: 19	Thanx bloop. You forgot some piccies It seems that John Stanmeyer sure likes MT "Long periods of prayer in solitude occupy much of Mother Teresa's time at her mission's headquarters in downtown Calcutta. Her decades of service to the worlds needy show on the soles of her feet." <a href="http://www.s2f.com/stanmeyer/mamat/mamat.html" target="_blank">http://www.s2f.com/stanmeyer/mamat/mamat.html</a> "Maggots infest the heads of many as well as malnutrition, maleria, tuberculosis along with other deadly illness which plague the thousands of street people of Calcutta, India." bbl.Thx again. Arrowman ill worship you if you give that all true charity foundation

11-05-2002, 01:00 AM	#84
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I've thought of composing a conversation between St. Genevieve and Mother Teresa in Heaven to illustrate the Hume/Carrier thesis that reported miracles have become much rarer in recent centuries. I'm not sure how to play it; here's a guess: St. G. and MT have a conversation that drifts to their former lives on Earth, and St. G. describes some of the miracles she had worked. MT comments that she wishes that she had had that gift, and she wonders why nobody else in her time seemed to have it. Which perplexes St. G.

11-05-2002, 04:30 AM	#86
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	~ or Uri Geller ...John Edward...Sylvia Browne???

11-05-2002, 06:52 PM	#90
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I checked out Gemma Therese's counterexamples: Gemma Galgani: Had stigmata. And had LOTS of visions. She had been very sickly, and she died at the age of 25. I wonder why she had been unable to cure herself and live a reasonably long and healthy life; St. Genevieve had clearly been a LOT better at self-preservation. Padre Pio: I will concede that he had allegedly cured some people; but his miracles are still not Genevieve meat. I also note that the Vatican had originally doubted PP's stigmata. Fatima: It is easy to reproduce the Miracle of Fatima. Simply stare at the Sun.

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