Bree

Asking questions is fine, and even encouraged (imagine that). However, picking a fight with another member with comments such as "I find this strange behaviour for a Christian" or anything similar. Any further posts on the subject (whether Helen is involved or not) will be dealt with accordingly. If you don't like how I've moderated this thread, feel free to PM me so we can discuss it further.

Thank you.

HelenM

But GeoTheo, those are two verses in the whole Bible and the Bible nowhere says "use these verses as an excuse to go say invalidating things to ex-Christians".

I don't think of Jesus as behaving that way either. He was direct with the religious leaders; but I don't see any religious leaders here

You may believe what you like but I don't see the point of telling people they are wrong about their own nonbelief. It only annoys them and anyway, I don't think that when they say "I don't believe" they are lying.

I generally give people the benefit of the doubt when they say "This is what I believe" or "This is what I do not believe". Unless proven otherwise.

I doubt anyone tells the truth all the time. I acknowledge that people do tend to be self deceived to some extent. I've observed it in Christians as well as non-Christians.

I don't see that I am mandated to insinuate that atheists are lying. In fact I don't see that I'm mandated to 'question' them in the manner to which you allude.

My understanding of Jesus is that he talked with people as individuals. He didn't just get out a Bible and point to two verses and call them liars.

My goal is to follow Jesus based on what I understand that to mean. Not to do what you think I should do - with all due respect. Not to find in the Bible an excuse to be disrespectful to other people. The greatest commands according to Jesus are "Love God and love other people". I don't see it as loving to call them liars. The Bible doesn't say "love other people except when you have a chance to tell them they are liars based on Psalm 14:1 and Romans 1:20 in which case have a field day!"

Anyway, how many people have 'reconverted' based on your preferred approaches? Can you demonstrate that it is it better than mine?

Anyway, Happy Easter

Helen

Asha'man

I’m shocked and amazed that you would disagree with HelenM’s wisdom on this issue.

When someone attempts to tell an atheist what they really believe, that person has just lost the debate and ended the discussion. There is no faster way to prove yourself wrong than to incorrectly tell someone what they believe. Even if the atheist ignores the rudeness and arrogance of the statement, there is no way to ignore the falseness of the assertion.

Using the Bible as justification just compounds the error. Not only has the theist demonstrated that they don’t know what they are talking about, but they have just proven that the Bible is equally erroneous. It looks like I should now add Romans 1:20 and Psalm 14:1 to my list of Biblical contradictions.

Such tactics will essentially end the discussion, and the theist will have lost any chance to influence the atheist.

GeoTheo

Well here is the thing Helen:
You seem to think I am saying Christians should get in atheists face call them a Liar. That is not exactly what I am saying. I agree with a lot of what you said, however. I am saying that you can't take everything they say to heart. I think Christians come on here and deconvert partly because they loose a battle of attrition. They begin to identify too much with the atheists and their experiences and begin to let it shape how they view reality.
As a Christian we should not allow oursselves to be molded by the world's way of thinking, but rather have a world view based on the Bible. That is all I'm saying. In the earlier comment to Bad fish you were referring to reading Atheists testimonies and using that to explain your point:
" Have you read any of the testimonies of people who tried to keep believing but couldn't?"

Aside from trying to be respectful etc., which deals with how we relate to others, from the perspective of actually trying to discover the truth of the matter, how should a Christian view such testimonies? Are there any examples in the Bible of people who wanted to believe but couldn't? If so please point them out to me and I am not being sarcastic when I say that. Because I not only don't find any such examples, I find that what is in the Bible seems to directly contradict that sentiment that one can try to believe and fail. So, How do I look at these testimonies in light of actually understanding the reality of the situation?

1. I can reject them because I would rather follow what the Bible has to say as the ultimate authority for spiritual truth.
2. I could try to reconcile the two.
3. I could reject the Bible because it contradicts all these atheists' claims of their personal experience.

I am thinking that doing number two is what you are doing and my contention is that eventually that leads to a person adopting the third option and deconverting from Christianity.

I am also beginning to think that it may be dangerous for Christians to spend too much time here because they get socialized by the culture here and that pulls them away from Christ.
As far as the tact thing goes, I admit I don't always have enough.
But I think there is a deeper question here on how a Christian should respond to atheist testimonies internally as well as externally.

mike_decock

The atheist friends I have are not corrupt, don't do vile deeds and often do good. They have been more caring and honest than my Christian friends were.

My disbelief is not an act of rebellion and I certainly no longer believe in God. The "enlightenment" of Christianity paled in comparison to the "enlightenment" of thinking freely and being good for the sake of being good.

There is no self deception involved in unbelief. Unbelief is the default state of existence.

Wiser? No.
Paranoid? Yes.

-Mike...

brighid

Wiser to question the atheist and not the Bible … how so?

Why would it be wiser to question a fellow human being that (if souls exist) has no sway over the future, and eternal domicile of your allegedly eternal souls home? The Bible, on the other hand, proclaims to be the Word of a God who claims dominion over all things. This God claims omnipotence, omniscience and other omnimax qualities. It claims to be the Truth and as a matter of fact THEE only Truth amongst many claims of being “the way, the truth and the light.” This God sets forth rules of conduct and provides elaborate stories about His existence, thoughts and desires (often contradictory if one compares the OT and NT.) This God requires man to pledge unfaltering allegiance to His Son, His Ghost and to Himself in exchange for everlasting life in a pristine and sublime Kingdom beyond this world. Isn’t the importance of one’s eternal soul …well of paramount importance? So why waste ones time questioning an insignificant human being that makes absolutely no claims of a God? Wouldn’t it be most logical to question the claims of this God, or any God(s) claiming to be THEE way, truth and light? Shouldn’t one meticulously question such extraordinary claims to insure that one is INDEED following the correct Deity, and not just following the one that makes this claim since so many other Deities throughout the history of humankind have made similar claims, or simply the religion one was born into? Why should man simply take the word of this particular Holy Book, the Bible?

It would seem, at least to the logical mind, an utter waste of time questioning the presumed motives of those asking the questions a theist should be asking himself, his Church and his God. We claim no magical abilities. We claim no providence. We claim no afterlife. We claim no soul, or to be the Master of All Souls. We simply claim that we do not believe in your particular God, just as you disbelieve in the pantheon of other Gods. We have found some of the answers to the questions you should be asking.

Brighid

seebs

If Christianity is false, then one *should* deconvert. However, you have omitted a few options:

4. I could reconsider my *interpretation* of the Bible.
5. I could seek better understanding of these peoples' claims.
6. I could accept that the Bible's inerrancy is not the modern "every word at face value" nonsense, but rather, the knowledge that careful study of the Bible, with awareness of context, will lead me towards salvation rather than away from it.

#4 and #6 are exceptionally useful approaches. Sometimes, the people whose words are recorded in the Bible were using hyperbole to try to communicate something they experienced. It's dangerous to accept hyperbole at face value.

Badfish

How come almost every atheist says this?


Christians can't think freely?





What are you paranoid about?

wildernesse

I believe! Help thou my unbelief.

Cried the man whose son the disciples could not heal. Does simply stating the words make it so? I don't think so. Why would he ask for help with his unbelief if by wanting, he could vanquish it?

If anything, this shows that faith is given by God--as in the man only believes after his son is healed (and we're not told explicitly that the man does believe). The healing being the gift from God that allows the man to believe. Our trying seems to have nothing to do with it. There are several passages that refer to faith as being given from God to believers, and in differing measures.

I don't know that wanting to believe means that you really do or can. I think that many current non-believers did go thru a stage of wanting to believe and that it was a desperate stage as they saw what they wanted most irretreviably slipping away.

--tibac

Goliath

GeoTheo,

How is this in any way relevant to the discussion at hand? The bible does not contain examples of absolutely convergent series, motorcycle engines, or HFD's that are not UFD's, but that doesn't stop any of these things from existing, now does it?

Sincerely,

Goliath