Jeremy Pallant

Atheism is the default. We are born atheists. I certainly was. I specifically remember being told that god and Jesus existed, and that the stories my parents had been reading me from the Children's Bible were true. I also remember being rather surprised because up to that point I had thought that they were fairy tales, just like those in Grimm's Fairy Tales that my parents had also been reading to me.

In other words, atheism is not indoctrination, theism is. The only difference between a child's belief in Santa Claus and a child's belief in god is that the Santa Claus lie is eventually revealed, and the god lie is not. The latter lie is then reinforced by a superstitious and gullible society.

...but we've all heard this before.

santa

Excuse me, I resemble this remark. I am much more real than god. You don't believe, no presents from me, OK?

joedad

Can't speak for Tercel, but we might as well add those notorious biblical boogie men, Satan and the Antichrist, to the christian roles. Come to think of it, within christianity, only the christian gods aren't christians.

joe

joedad

Yes, we have.

I think Ron Garret called it "parent separation anxiety disorder." Gods are the ultimate invisible, make-believe Mommy and Daddy protectors and providers. In truth, the need for Santa and parents never disappears from such people's lives, but only takes the form of gods.

To those with such a lifelong dependency, the lie is never revealed, or perhaps like any dependency, not easily overcome or quickly outgrown.

No big deal, except for the fact that there are plenty of god-merchants ready to make a buck in such a situation.

Religion is hardly the same thing as knowledge, a commodity that might genuinely empower a person. It is at best a pseudo intellectual fix that relieves anxiety and maintains dependency.

joe

Not Prince Hamlet

I'm about ready to start a Joedad-worshipping religion after that last post. Very nicely said indeed!

Jeff

Tercel

Really? -You were born understanding the concept of the existence of a deity and believing that such a deity did not exist?

Don't be silly. We are all born having absolutely no understanding of what a god is and certainly no understanding of whether one exists. Such concepts are something we aquire as we grow and our mind and thinking matures.
If anything could be said to be the "default" it is clearly religious belief not atheism, since it seems clear that historically the numbers of the religious have always greatly outweighed the comparatively few unreligious. The claim that a small minority position is the "default" would seem to be laughable.

Not Prince Hamlet

Tercel,

I'm on the fence on this one. It really depends on your definition of "atheist": whether it's an active or passive disbelief.

I'm leaning toward J. Mordecai Pallant's statement that we are born atheists, but this obviously implies the passive variety.

If atheism is a more active state, as you seem to feel it is, then I would side with you, that it is something that must be learned.

In other words, I do not believe a baby is born thinking, "There are no gods." Instead, I agree with you that they are born without any concept of a god, and only once they are exposed to various theisms do they either embrace a theism, or actively deny them and become an atheist as you define the term.

Jeff

Jeremy Pallant

No, I was born lacking a belief in god. Is that not a form of Atheism?

Really? You were born understanding the concept of the existence of a deity and believing that such a deity did exist.

So let me see if I understand you correctly. An appeal to majority belief is the best you can do? Your argument comes down to "More people have been religious than not, therefore the majority is correct". According to that logic because there was a time when the majority believed in a geocentric universe, Galileo was wrong.

You also totally fail to appreciate the influence of religious parents on their offspring. They inevitably pass on their own beliefs to their impressionable children, just as happened to them.

The reason there are fewer atheists than theists is because the majority of people are insecure sheep who are incapable of dealing with reality. Theism is also a social phenomenon, and most people would rather be part of the group than not.

Foxhole Atheist

Originally posted by Tercel:
”...since it seems clear that historically the numbers of the religious have always greatly outweighed the comparatively few unreligious. The claim that a small minority position is the "default" would seem to be laughable.”

Let us not forget that there was a time when you either believed or you were put to death. And, that death was not just an extinguishing of your life, but an actual “purging” by fire. Is it any wonder then, that the majority of people believed as they were told?

Today’s numbers simply reflect the conditioning and indoctrination prevalent throughout most societies that is forced upon young minds before they’ve had any chance to think for themselves.

Not Prince Hamlet

Foxhole Atheist,

You are so right about indoctrination. As the leader of the Nazi Teacher's League, Hans Schemm put it: "Those who have the youth on their side control the future."

(or as Miss Jean Brodie said in "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie": "Give me a girl at an impressionable age and she is mine for life.")

The Catholic church is well aware of this. This is why they have such an intensive training program for children. Get them while they're young and impressionable, and they may never break free from their dogma.

I once dated a Catholic woman. Once the subject of children came up, and I stated that I couldn't raise a child Catholic, but I would be willing to allow the child to be exposed to all religions and then make his or her own decision. She was a devout Catholic, though, and of course this was unacceptable to her. She said, no, but you could expose him or her to other religions after age 14 or so.

Wow. Amazing how it perpetuates itself. She had been brainwashed by the church as a child, and she was brainwashed so that she would brainwash her children, and so on down the line.

If it weren't so chilling, I'd almost have to admire the ones who concocted this.

Jeff


P.S. I'm now going out with a wonderful atheist, and there is much more harmony!

[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Not Prince Hamlet ]</p>