Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pyrrho · 04-01-2003, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by meritocrat
As a believer in freedom of thought, I feel that people have a right to hold and express racist beliefs.

But do you really have a right to dislike somebody simply because their skin colour is different (and one's skin colour is a minor aspect of a person's being)?

If you have the right to be racist, as you claim, how can you then ask if someone has the right to dislike someone because of the color of their skin? Of course, if you are a racist, you will dislike people because of the color of their skin (or whatever attribute that is used to define "race"). What do you think it means to be a racist? Do you imagine that a racist believes that everyone is equal, regardless of race????

Pyrrho · 04-01-2003, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by meritocrat
Even if people have a right to total freedom of speech/expression, that in itself cannot infringe on others' rights.

So you imagine that there is no such thing as a hostile work environment? That it is impossible to harass others, like paparazzi do with the rich and famous? If I were to scream in your face obscenities whenever you stepped off your lawn, you don't think that that would infringe on your rights? And treat your children in a like manner?

meritocrat · 04-01-2003, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyrrho
If you have the right to be racist, as you claim, how can you then ask if someone has the right to dislike someone because of the color of their skin? Of course, if you are a racist, you will dislike people because of the color of their skin (or whatever attribute that is used to define "race"). What do you think it means to be a racist? Do you imagine that a racist believes that everyone is equal, regardless of race????

Everyone believes in a right to be racist; I'm not merely claiming it.

I'm questioning the 'right' to be racist.

meritocrat · 04-01-2003, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyrrho
So you imagine that there is no such thing as a hostile work environment? That it is impossible to harass others, like paparazzi do with the rich and famous? If I were to scream in your face obscenities whenever you stepped off your lawn, you don't think that that would infringe on your rights? And treat your children in a like manner?

I haven't advocated a total freedom of expression in this thread. If you scream obscenities on my lawn, you're violating my property rights.

Monkeybot · 04-01-2003, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by meritocrat
But do you really have a right to dislike somebody simply because their skin colour is different (and one's skin colour is a minor aspect of a person's being)?

As far as I'm concerned, you're free to dislike people based on criteria as arbitrary as whether or not they like brussels sprouts.

How you are allowed to express this dislike, on the other hand, should be (and is) regulated. You're not allowed to harass people, you're not allowed to make hiring decisions based on race (or brussels sprouts preference), etc.

Philosoft · 04-01-2003, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Monkeybot
You're not allowed to harass people, you're not allowed to make hiring decisions based on race (or brussels sprouts preference), etc.

Minor point: Hiring discrimination is legal for any reason or no reason, brussels sprouts preference included, except those based on race, religion, sex or nationality. So sayeth the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Nostalgic Pushhead · 04-01-2003, 10:55 PM

I guess people have the right to be racist, but they shouldn't be.

"Race" is a false concept. There is no such thing. There's only groups of people who share common ethnic traits. The boundaries aren't defined. I mean, if you draw a straight line from Finland to Africa, you don't find "whites" and "blacks". You find a spectrum of shades, from pale white to dark black- and everything inbetween.

Feel free to rip this idea apart, I was taught it in an anthropology class, but I think it makes a lot sense.

So, in short, being racist is stupid.

echidna · 04-01-2003, 11:54 PM

Piscez, you may be interested in this link. I just posted it in this thread.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...3B809EC588EEDF

VonEvilstein · 04-02-2003, 03:39 AM

This is one I was wondering about yesterday, actually. The Dutch Constitution, article 1 prohibits any form of discrimination on whatever grounds. However, later on in the Constitution, freedom of expression of one's opinion is also guaranteed.

I always thought this implied that one could legally say "I think <group of people> are scum, and that they should all be put to death.". But if you leave the "I think" part out, and present this as a fact, or take any discriminatory action based on this opinion, the line has been crossed.

meritocrat · 04-02-2003, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Piscez
I guess people have the right to be racist, but they shouldn't be.

Why not?

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04-01-2003, 10:55 PM	#27
Nostalgic Pushhead Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: So. Burlington, Vermont Posts: 4,315	I guess people have the right to be racist, but they shouldn't be. "Race" is a false concept. There is no such thing. There's only groups of people who share common ethnic traits. The boundaries aren't defined. I mean, if you draw a straight line from Finland to Africa, you don't find "whites" and "blacks". You find a spectrum of shades, from pale white to dark black- and everything inbetween. Feel free to rip this idea apart, I was taught it in an anthropology class, but I think it makes a lot sense. So, in short, being racist is stupid.

04-01-2003, 11:54 PM	#28
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Piscez, you may be interested in this link. I just posted it in this thread. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...3B809EC588EEDF

04-02-2003, 03:39 AM	#29
VonEvilstein Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: .nl Posts: 822	This is one I was wondering about yesterday, actually. The Dutch Constitution, article 1 prohibits any form of discrimination on whatever grounds. However, later on in the Constitution, freedom of expression of one's opinion is also guaranteed. I always thought this implied that one could legally say "I think <group of people> are scum, and that they should all be put to death.". But if you leave the "I think" part out, and present this as a fact, or take any discriminatory action based on this opinion, the line has been crossed.

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