Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Thieving Magpie · 01-15-2003, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr Rick
[B]What's really weird is that someone would express a preference for a lack of rational thought, and then someone else would just ignore or fail to comprehend the admission and claim that those who understand the ramifications of such a position are "desperately cling[ing] to the belief that people who feel or think otherwise are somehow lacking" when the first person clearly proclaimed that they prefer lacking [rational thought].

[b]

That's a strawman fallacy; the issue isn't about who is smarter than whom; it's about deliberately not using whatever intelligence one has.

That's another strawman; the argument made by TM wasn't that some things are beyond rational thought but that faith is preferable to rational thought.
Rick

My, oh my, Dr. Rick... I never once stated a preference for a lack of rational thought. What I did state is that Christians must inherently choose faith over rational thought, so for Christians, faith is preferable. I am not a Christian, and so, am not held to any such belief, by myself, or any other.

My argument was this: Rational thought and faith often do not coexist, so most people have to pick one over the other. Christians must pick faith because things such as God cannot be rationally proven (either yet, or at all). Christians who try to have a mixture of both rational thought and faith in order to explain their religion are worse at being Christians than those who rely entirely on faith. Jesus himself praised children for their simple, unadultered faith, and held them up as a model for all adults. Adults doubt, and that is okay, but it is just another way that a Christian may say that they sin (this certainly isn't always the case, but, never the less). A less deficient Christian would doubt less. There are obviously intelligent Christians out there, but if they choose not to doubt, and to have faith in their beliefs then they are better Christians IN THE MATTER OF FAITH than those who do doubt (I am not referring to particular denominations).

A semi-related quote: 'A God capable of proof would be no God at all.'

Also.. I'd like to point out that i have never once made referance to a 'True Christian (TM).' I doubt one exists, or even can exist, to be honest. However, Christianity - as duplicious as it is - must follow certain criteria and among those is included the answer to the faith/rational thought problem.

Thieving Magpie · 01-15-2003, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seebs
I think you may be generalizing too much; not all people have the same approach to faith, nor should we. If God had only wanted one kind of person, He would have made Adam and said "hey, nice work, time to take a break and have some beers", and that would be it.

Many people have very different experiences of faith than you describe.

Oh yes, I'm aware, that people believe that to be true. I don't.

Celsus · 01-15-2003, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
Those who supposedy "fall away" permanently only do so for two or perhaps three reasons

1. They were never really born again, never really knew God as he is, and were "raised" Christian. You hear this all the time. They say "I was raised Christian" as if that is enough. Sorry but "You must be born again" even if you have the whole Bible memorized.

2. They were born again, but were taught legalistic nonsense, become spiritually thirsty and leave their church in search of the spiritual reality they once felt.

3. Some may be Christians but are attracted by earthly lusts and cares. These are saved, but will suffer in this life, which suffering usually brings them back.

You're getting quite close, but haven't quite come to anything like my situation. Why don't you keep guessing? Here's a hint: the YHWH of the Bible isn't perfect. It sheds quite an amazing light once you recognise that.

Quote:

I haven't read all the atheist testimonies, it is true. But I seriously doubt there is one true rebirth experience in the lot.

Joel's evidence of being a Christian is that he once said two nice things about God and had missinary parents. I'm afraid this is rather typical.

Heh. Radorth, you do love to presume a lot don't you? FYI, I went on a missionary trip in Dec-Jan 1997, was financially supporting two missionary couples, did my degree specifically to work in Africa, and was thinking about entering seminary afterwords. I have written more than "two nice things" about Christianity, although that's the only one available on-line AFAIK. But you need to hide behind your cloak of "True" and "False" Christians. So be it.

Joel

Debbie T · 01-15-2003, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyShea

I'm with livius...I did the church thing, Bible study thing, said the sinner's prayer...nothing happened so I blew off the whole idea and looked for something else. Simply not a big deal for me...HOWEVER...it is a painful experience for many and I am flabbergasted by how fast so many Christians turn on those who question or begin doubting.

I agree LadyShea, It is a very painful thing for many. Especially those who were raised with it and spent many years believing it. It is like having the rug pulled out from under you.

It is also painful when Christians turn on you - family and friends or like the ones here that are accusing BG of never being one. But after awhile as you shake off the programming you understand why they behave this way. And then you beginning to feel sorry for them as you realize the truth you have that they can never realize until they too wake up.

Blonde Goddess,

Hang in there BG, I think you are going to get through this ok. And you don't have to take a leap from Christian to Atheist unless you want to. Many will still have a god belief and leave Christianity. Once you get Christianity out of your system and you keep searching for truth things become more clear. It was the way I went and I would pray to God and suddenly I realized that there was no need for prayer as I didn't believe as a Christian anymore. My next step was believing that god didn't need prayers, he was without ego. Humans created god to have an ego and emotions much like themselves. If there truly was a god he wouldn't need to be worshipped, there would be no jealousy. These are all human. From there it was a natural process to give up a god and I became agnostic. I am not an atheist yet but I seem to be leaning that way now.

One thing you have in your favor that I didn't have is a group like this to talk to. Note how you are being treated by some? Christians are doing the shame and blame (except Seebs). You see they have a lot at stake when a person leaves. Wouldn't it seem more loving if they were there to try to help you through it instead of the blame and shame routine? It says a lot about them and to me I would say and you think I want to come back to more of the guilt and shame? This was really an eye opener for me as it may be for you.

Anyway give yourself time and the best thing I can say to you is don't feel like you have to take giant leaps. That's how Christianity is -- an all or nothing mentality. Soon you will find everything isn't just in black and white, there is every shade in between. So leaving it behind isn't all or nothing. Best of all there are no threats here, you are not going to be dammed for seeking the truth. Its a process of self discovery. It's a journey that sets your mind free. Take care.

BibleBelted · 01-15-2003, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:

I'd say 'good for you' BibleBelted. The Catholic Church has held this opinion right along and maybe millions have died because they waged war against her words of wisdom. As you may have read, at one time blondegoddess would have sacrificed her own life to defend the salvation that she now rejects (for good reason). The proper imagery here is that she "was at the foot of the cross with the burning desire for atonement" while her plea was not heard.

I don't know why I didn't think of that!

It's all so perfectly clear now.

Jobar · 01-15-2003, 06:17 PM

Hi Blondegoddess. I have a sister named Beth.

I'm in the 'Atheists' Testimony' thread, towards the end of page 2 IIRC. So I won't repeat all that. I became an unbeliever at 15, after being raised in the Southern Baptist faith; now I'm 47, so I've been an atheist for more than two thirds of my life.

Leaving behind your religious beliefs requires you to rebuild your world, inside and out.

On the inside, you have been taught from an early age that there is this thing called a 'soul' that is the *real you*. Your soul is the most important thing about you; it is worth more than your physical body, or your intellect. That soul is eternal, and will wind up either in Heaven or Hell; eternal agony, or eternal bliss, and the choices you make on Earth determine which you get.

We tell you that there is no soul. It's only an ancient attempt to explain the mind. The 'I' you experience as your self is a function of your brain and body. That self is not eternal, and will stop when your body stops at death. You will become as you were before you were born.

On the outside, the church you are a part of considers your status as a Christian to be the single most important thing about you, far and away. You are one of the elect; you have been 'washed in the blood' (disgusting concept!); you are one of the "good guys".

We tell you that your church is a sham, a fake, a lie which perpetuates itself over lifetimes. It is purely a method of social control, and all the priests and preachers and mullahs and witch doctors are in it for the easy hours and the soft work, the respect they can claim and the power and wealth they can garner. We tell you that religion is the evil which wears the mask of good.

Losing your religion is a metamorphosis- your appearance doesn't change, but the way the world appears to you changes. Radically.

Since I was quite young when I saw through the myths, it was easier for me, I think. The older you get, and the more dedicated to your religion you become, the more difficult it is.

Internet Infidels is a good place for people undergoing this metamorphosis, whatever age they are. Yes, there are good people here, and lots of us will do whatever we can to help you see how much more vast, vivid, and beautiful the universe is when not filtered through delusions of Gods. It can be like taking off a suit of heavy armor you did not realize you were wearing; yes, the sharpness of the world can cause you more pain, but the joys are sharper too!

Dr Rick · 01-15-2003, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thieving Magpie
My, oh my, Dr. Rick... I never once stated a preference for a lack of rational thought.

You expressed a preference when you posted: "It can be difficult for an adult to have faith like a child, but never the less, it is the ideal that Christians ought to pursue"

Quote:

What I did state is that Christians must inherently choose faith over rational thought...

The teminology you used was "ought to"

Quote:

I am not a Christian, and so, am not held to any such belief, by myself, or any other.

You were expousing an argument for faith over rational thought; what you believe is not the issue.

Quote:

My argument was this: Rational thought and faith often do not coexist, so most people have to pick one over the other.

You argued what Christians "ought to" do, not what their choices are.

Quote:

Christians must pick faith because things such as God cannot be rationally proven (either yet, or at all).

That is not true: many of the atheists posting here, including myself, were once Christians that chose rational thought over faith. We became athiests once we started thinking rationally, so Christians don't have to pick faith as you insist they must.

Quote:

Christians who try to have a mixture of both rational thought and faith in order to explain their religion are worse at being Christians than those who rely entirely on faith.

So?

Quote:

Jesus himself praised children for their simple, unadultered faith, and held them up as a model for all adults.

That may not be true, as there is ample reason to doubt that Jesus ever existed or that what he said was accurately recorded decades after he supposedly lived, but even if it is true, so what?

Quote:

Adults doubt, and that is okay, but it is just another way that a Christian may say that they sin (this certainly isn't always the case, but, never the less). A less deficient Christian would doubt less. There are obviously intelligent Christians out there, but if they choose not to doubt, and to have faith in their beliefs then they are better Christians IN THE MATTER OF FAITH than those who do doubt (I am not referring to particular denominations).

That's a strawman; we aren't arguing what makes "better Christians IN THE MATTER OF FAITH than those who do doubt"

Rick

Radorth · 01-15-2003, 07:06 PM

Quote:

In short, if I should not presume to say what I do, then you should not presume to say as you do.

Watch out TM. Anything you say may be construed as "heaping guilt" on BlondeGoddess.

I stand by my assertion. If she was a Christian, she can do whatever she wants, and she won't stop being one in her heart. You can think "rationally" all you want, and your heart will not change.

Oops, there I go "heaping guilt" on BG.

My.

Rad

Radorth · 01-15-2003, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Heh. Radorth, you do love to presume a lot don't you? FYI, I went on a missionary trip in Dec-Jan 1997, was financially supporting two missionary couples, did my degree specifically to work in Africa, and was thinking about entering seminary afterwords. I have written more than "two nice things" about Christianity, although that's the only one available on-line AFAIK. But you need to hide behind your cloak of "True" and "False" Christians. So be it.

I read the link you gave to show that you were a Christian, and I found nothing but two or three commennts about God and nothing really about any relationship with God.

And I still see nothing to show you ever had a personal relationship with him. Now you are talking about all your good works. Joel, if it ever occurs to you he was more interested in an intimate relationship with you than all your good works, you will be born again IN FACT.

It just amazes me how people relate good works to salvation, but I suppose must blame the church for that.

Oops, I guess I "heaped guilt" on Joel now.

Rad

Radorth · 01-15-2003, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Christians are doing the shame and blame (except Seebs).

Total bull.

Rad

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01-15-2003, 06:17 PM	#126
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Hi Blondegoddess. I have a sister named Beth. I'm in the 'Atheists' Testimony' thread, towards the end of page 2 IIRC. So I won't repeat all that. I became an unbeliever at 15, after being raised in the Southern Baptist faith; now I'm 47, so I've been an atheist for more than two thirds of my life. Leaving behind your religious beliefs requires you to rebuild your world, inside and out. On the inside, you have been taught from an early age that there is this thing called a 'soul' that is the real you. Your soul is the most important thing about you; it is worth more than your physical body, or your intellect. That soul is eternal, and will wind up either in Heaven or Hell; eternal agony, or eternal bliss, and the choices you make on Earth determine which you get. We tell you that there is no soul. It's only an ancient attempt to explain the mind. The 'I' you experience as your self is a function of your brain and body. That self is not eternal, and will stop when your body stops at death. You will become as you were before you were born. On the outside, the church you are a part of considers your status as a Christian to be the single most important thing about you, far and away. You are one of the elect; you have been 'washed in the blood' (disgusting concept!); you are one of the "good guys". We tell you that your church is a sham, a fake, a lie which perpetuates itself over lifetimes. It is purely a method of social control, and all the priests and preachers and mullahs and witch doctors are in it for the easy hours and the soft work, the respect they can claim and the power and wealth they can garner. We tell you that religion is the evil which wears the mask of good. Losing your religion is a metamorphosis- your appearance doesn't change, but the way the world appears to you changes. Radically. Since I was quite young when I saw through the myths, it was easier for me, I think. The older you get, and the more dedicated to your religion you become, the more difficult it is. Internet Infidels is a good place for people undergoing this metamorphosis, whatever age they are. Yes, there are good people here, and lots of us will do whatever we can to help you see how much more vast, vivid, and beautiful the universe is when not filtered through delusions of Gods. It can be like taking off a suit of heavy armor you did not realize you were wearing; yes, the sharpness of the world can cause you more pain, but the joys are sharper too!

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