kingjames1

So you choose to ignore the charge (that Meaning destroys any possiblity for meaning), and merely assert that it is the theists who are deluded - fine.

But who is admitting that life has no Meaning, and yet can claim to have meaning in their life? Pray tell, whence comes this 'meaning'? You? Than indeed, it is your personal delusion - you have deluded yourself into projecting meaning into your "puny little nihilistic existence." You're lying to yourself. Perhaps gnorance is bliss - cheers!

J.

daemon

Hope you don't mind if I pipe up...
Right there you have placed a value judgement that I, and I'm guessing others here, do not hold: that life as you have described it is an exercise in futility. This is not a charge in that it is factual; it is a matter of opinion, one that I do not share.
Again, statements of an opinion that I do not share. Just because a nihilist might believe my life has no meaning doesn't mean I must.
Given that no one has illustrated the falsehood of my happiness or reasons for being happy, nor that the reality is genuinely different, there is no need--it is neither delusion nor fiction.
False dichotomy. Just because I assume meaning does not mean I derive that meaning from something else.

Perhaps you should demonstrate an inconsistency, then. You have done nothing other than assert we must be secretly nihilists.

kingjames1

I assume you know this already, but you do realize that this a grotesque characture of the Christian religion ("weren't able to willing to grovel", a "cruel war-god"?). Unlike your recognition of the lack of transcendental structures (whether religious, ethical, or even aesthetic) as an implication of atheistic naturalism in my representing atheism, I cannot agree with your assessment of Christianity. At least present a truthful, honest representation of Christianity before critiquing it.

J.

BTW, plaese forgive me for my statement about "most atheists" being "intellectually lazy." I certainly did not mean that you are not intelligetn. Within this polemical context, I meant simply to say that most atheists do not consider the implications of their beliefs (which I do consider to be true - indeed, the same applies to most Christians in America!)

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: kingjames1 ]</p>

daemon

You still don't get it, kj. The nonexistence capital-M Meaning is as important as the nonexistence of square circles.
Very well. Demonstrate, factually or logically, the falseness of it.
What is this, kindergarten? Should we be calling you a doodyhead?

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: daemon ]</p>

kingjames1

First, I do not assume that any of you are secretly nihilists...

Second, you are correct that I have not demonstrated the inconsistency of the argument, anymore thant anyone has demonstrated the consistency of the argument, (or anyone here has demonstrated the Bible to be what they've claimed it to be).

Rather, I have simply provided a charge: demonstrate the consistency. Indeed, I don't even understand how one can coherently claim to live 'meaningfully' and simultaneously recognize that they themselves are inventing the meaning (in fact, this seems to me to be a contradiction in terms - one cannot, almost by definition, invent meaning for themselves, anymore than a text's meaning can be invented by the letters.)

J.

kingjames1

No, daemon I don't. Could you demonstrate this incredible claim for me? This request shouldn't seem odd, seeing as how it is within transcendental terms that humans have understood their meaning and purpose, it would seem, in every civilization since the beginning of human history.

I don't know, daemon, have you read the posts here?

daemon

Interesting notion, but one I simply can't do, as my personal philosophy undergoes refinement at all times. I attempt to find inconsistencies in my worldview and correct for them, but to demonstrate its consistency would be to write the contents of my mind, a task of such immensity that I simply haven't the time to do it, especially within the scope of a bulletin board.
This is the result of an assumption of objective meaning. I am personally a value subjectivist--as far as I can tell, meaning, in the sense we have used in this discussion, is a human invention. Humans evaluate, creating their own values.

From appearances, you are attempting to determine the consistency of subjectivist meaning assuming objective meaning--from my worldview, the idea of objective meaning is absurd and meaningless. Different sense of meaning, mind you. So it is thus no wonder that you find it to be inconsistent.

daemon

Demonstrate? It is a subjective matter; I can no more demonstrate this than I can prove to you that I'm happy. Perhaps it was poor phrasing, however; it should probably properly be "To a value subjectivist, the nonexistence capital-M Meaning is as important as the nonexistence of square circles."
For many, this is true, but not all. I can present hypotheses as to why this is the case, but not being a sociologist, I haven't the resources to investigate or verify any of my claims. By and large, my hypotheses are not kind to the collective intelligence of humanity.
I must admit that my opinion is that people get far too personal and nasty in their discussions, but nonetheless I try to encourage people to discuss civilly.

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: daemon ]</p>

Mageth

I agree that what I posted was a bit of a caricature of Christianity, but there's truth in it.

cruel war-god - read the OT; destroying all of humaninity except a select few in a deluge; "giving" a land to a people which included helping them in destroying the denizens of the land (ordering them to, actually, including women and children); etc.

groveling - asking forgiveness for supposed corruptness and sin brought on by an ancestor who had the audacity to eat a fruit; spending eternity worshipping a deity who condemns even one's loved ones and friends to eternal suffering just because they did not likewise ask forgiveness.

I'll reword it to be less of a caricature:

"What could be more bleak than going through life considering humankind to be corrupt and doomed, with no hope for salvation except for the intervention of a deity that created things this way, and with the vast majority of mankind doomed by that deity to eternal suffering because they weren't able or willing to seek forgiveness for being corrupted by the actions of an ancestor?"

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

Mageth

daemon answered many of your points excellently, but:

But who is admitting that life has no Meaning, and yet can claim to have meaning in their life? Pray tell, whence comes this 'meaning'? You? Than indeed, it is your personal delusion - you have deluded yourself into projecting meaning into your "puny little nihilistic existence." You're lying to yourself. Perhaps gnorance is bliss - cheers!

Yes, I give meaning to my life. As there is no Meaning to life, I don't see how this is deluding myself; I don't claim there is or should be Meaning.

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>