Freethought & Rationalism Archive

echidna · 07-11-2002, 11:27 PM

I think if you believe that the Holocaust was just a huge logical misunderstanding, then you are completely missing its true causes hidden deep within human nature.

BTW, *telemarking* is freeheel downhill skiing. Telemarketing is the work of Satan.

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: echidna ]

echidna · 07-11-2002, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus:
1) killing millions would be immoral
2) I want to be moral
Conclusion: I do not want to kill millions.

I see. The Nazis did not subscribe to P1. Millions of what ?

Christopher Lord · 07-11-2002, 11:32 PM

Quote:

I think if you believe that the Holocaust was just a huge logical misunderstanding, then you are deeply missing its true causes hidden deep within human nature.

I agree with this completely.

echidna · 07-12-2002, 12:32 AM

Apologies for some gratuitously mutual back-slapping, but I also strongly concurred with your problem with intelligence.

I find it fascinating that the parable of the Tree of Knowledge reveals how obvious this problem was, even however millennia ago when Genesis was written.

abe smith · 07-12-2002, 05:21 AM

I'm w/ Mad Mordigan on this; human STUPIDITY, in all its equivalent forms. Abe

babelfish · 07-12-2002, 02:04 PM

I think much of what is wrong can be traced back to a general sense of dissatisfaction with life that much of humanity seems to be endowed with.

If we were all just happy and satisfied and sort pleased with how things are, there would be no war (hey, I want that land!, or hey, I want everyone to believe in my god!), but on the other hand, civilization and technological advances wouldn't exist either. After all, what are inventions? They're someone trying to make something better/faster/easier.

Religion may have been invented when someone figured out that this life here on earth could probably never live up to their expectations. So they invented - voila! - an afterlife!

So that's what gets my vote: dissatisfaction.

John Page · 07-12-2002, 05:24 PM

The ability to find flaws without first identifying objective criteria.

Dr Rick · 07-12-2002, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Red Expendable:
I wanted to know what people think the one major flaw of humanity is? what I mean is -- What do you think is the one thing inherent (maybe this could also be something that is not inherent but something that is taught...whatever you guys think!) -- in human beings that causes unhappiness amongst the human population?

Religion.

Rick

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]

Doubting Didymus · 07-13-2002, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Where did you get your premises from ?

I made them up, but that isn't the point.

My main point was that you are wrong when you allege that emotions and morality are separate from logic. A moral assertion can form a logical premise.

I agree that the holocaust has deeper causes than just 'misunderstanding', but it DID rely on a logical fallacy for its support (the untruth of 'all jews are X' statements)

No, I dont think I could have reasoned with the nazis, but I do think more logical thinking all round could have prevented it.

Quote:

1) killing millions would be immoral
2) I want to be moral
Conclusion: I do not want to kill millions.
I see. The Nazis did not subscribe to P1.

Exactly, because the nazis were not being logical. P1 is a statement that needs to be backed up on its own. Morals can not be accepted just because someone says they are true. They need LOGIC to justify them. you can say:

1) Action A would cause more suffering than good.
2) any action that causes more suffering than good is immoral.
3) Action A is immoral.

Show me a moral code that can't be backed up with logic and I'll show you a moral code that isn't true.

Quote:

Please show me objective evidence that culture does not affect behaviour.

Why? I agree with you. However, LOGIC is NOT culturally relative. In this way it is like maths. Just as 1+1=2 no matter where you come from, the logical equasion
'if a then b,
a,
therefore b'
is ALWAYS VALID. No matter what culture you are from. This is what makes it a good tool for overcoming injustice.

Yes, I sincerely think that the holocaust could have been averted if the Nazis had had the capacity to logically examine racism and alter their views based on the conclusions they found. Unfortunately they did not, and that is why I consider a lack of logic to be a great flaw.

Christopher Lord · 07-14-2002, 03:23 PM

But Even if a society has perfect logic, killing and death etc. will happen.

For example:

Person A and family is starving.
Person B has food.
Person A can not find food elsewhere.
Person B Must keep food for own family.

Therefore, Person A must starve or FIGHT person B.

If all we had was teeth and claws (no wit), the fight would be over in a few seconds, and the victor would be clear. Only one individual need die in order to solve the problem.

But since both Person A and B are equiped with LOGIC, they can each come up with cunning and lethal methods of protecting their respective interests. Or, They can even use it instead to incite others to their own CAUSE. and once 'A' has incited a group to fight with him, 'B' must follow suit. This continues until you have wars on a catastrophic scale.

That is why I would say LOGIC is our greatest weakness as well as our primary strength.

07-11-2002, 11:27 PM	#21
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	I think if you believe that the Holocaust was just a huge logical misunderstanding, then you are completely missing its true causes hidden deep within human nature. BTW, telemarking is freeheel downhill skiing. Telemarketing is the work of Satan. [ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: echidna ]</p>

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07-12-2002, 12:32 AM	#24
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Apologies for some gratuitously mutual back-slapping, but I also strongly concurred with your problem with intelligence. I find it fascinating that the parable of the Tree of Knowledge reveals how obvious this problem was, even however millennia ago when Genesis was written.

07-12-2002, 05:21 AM	#25
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	I'm w/ Mad Mordigan on this; human STUPIDITY, in all its equivalent forms. Abe

07-12-2002, 02:04 PM	#26
babelfish Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Augusta, Maine, USA Posts: 2,046	I think much of what is wrong can be traced back to a general sense of dissatisfaction with life that much of humanity seems to be endowed with. If we were all just happy and satisfied and sort pleased with how things are, there would be no war (hey, I want that land!, or hey, I want everyone to believe in my god!), but on the other hand, civilization and technological advances wouldn't exist either. After all, what are inventions? They're someone trying to make something better/faster/easier. Religion may have been invented when someone figured out that this life here on earth could probably never live up to their expectations. So they invented - voila! - an afterlife! So that's what gets my vote: dissatisfaction.

07-12-2002, 05:24 PM	#27
John Page Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: US Posts: 5,495	The ability to find flaws without first identifying objective criteria.

07-14-2002, 03:23 PM	#30
Christopher Lord Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 808	But Even if a society has perfect logic, killing and death etc. will happen. For example: Person A and family is starving. Person B has food. Person A can not find food elsewhere. Person B Must keep food for own family. Therefore, Person A must starve or FIGHT person B. If all we had was teeth and claws (no wit), the fight would be over in a few seconds, and the victor would be clear. Only one individual need die in order to solve the problem. But since both Person A and B are equiped with LOGIC, they can each come up with cunning and lethal methods of protecting their respective interests. Or, They can even use it instead to incite others to their own CAUSE. and once 'A' has incited a group to fight with him, 'B' must follow suit. This continues until you have wars on a catastrophic scale. That is why I would say LOGIC is our greatest weakness as well as our primary strength.

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