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Old 07-29-2003, 09:01 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by River
Not another secular humanist link....
River I'm afraid that doesn't count for a rebuttal. If it does, then Kat's "not another Islam(ic) link" is entirely equivalent.

There were also two other posts of mine on the first page which you may have missed. Presumably for your argument to be convincing, G_d might will you to answer a little more definitely.
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Old 07-30-2003, 05:34 AM   #82
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Arrow Quran variations

Greetings River,

Quote:
There are no Qurans with more or less Suras.
Well,
the Quran of Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud (who Mohammed considered the best memorizer and reciter) apparently omitted Suras 1, 113, and 114. Variations between Ibn Mas'ud's version and the Zaid text filled 19 pages in the Kitab al-Masahif.

Also,
the Quran of Ubayy ibn Ka'b (the Master of the Readers) differed vastly from the Zaid text, largely agreeing with ibn Mas'ud. This variant text included 2 extra Suras not now found in the Quran: al-Hafd (the Haste) and al-Khal' (the separation).

These two lost Suras are also found in the codex of Ibn Abbas.

There is much evidence to show that material has been lost from the Quran, e.g. : "We used to read a verse of the Qur'an revealed in their connection, but later the verse was cancelled. It was: "convey to our people on our behalf the information that we have met our Lord, and He is pleased with us, and has made us pleased". (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 5, p.288)." Many Hadiths refer to Suras which are not in the Quran today.


Apparently there were 6 versions of the Quran in use when Uthmann chose Zaid's text (Abu Bakr's) and had the rest DESTROYED.

Even today, there are 10 variant "versions" of the Quran (the 7 main variants and the 3 minor variants), although there has never been a "critical edition".


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Old 07-30-2003, 07:01 AM   #83
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Default Re: Quran variations

Quote:
Originally posted by Iasion
Greetings River,



Well,
the Quran of Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud (who Mohammed considered the best memorizer and reciter) apparently omitted Suras 1, 113, and 114. Variations between Ibn Mas'ud's version and the Zaid text filled 19 pages in the Kitab al-Masahif.

Also,
the Quran of Ubayy ibn Ka'b (the Master of the Readers) differed vastly from the Zaid text, largely agreeing with ibn Mas'ud. This variant text included 2 extra Suras not now found in the Quran: al-Hafd (the Haste) and al-Khal' (the separation).

These two lost Suras are also found in the codex of Ibn Abbas.

There is much evidence to show that material has been lost from the Quran, e.g. : "We used to read a verse of the Qur'an revealed in their connection, but later the verse was cancelled. It was: "convey to our people on our behalf the information that we have met our Lord, and He is pleased with us, and has made us pleased". (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 5, p.288)." Many Hadiths refer to Suras which are not in the Quran today.


Apparently there were 6 versions of the Quran in use when Uthmann chose Zaid's text (Abu Bakr's) and had the rest DESTROYED.

Even today, there are 10 variant "versions" of the Quran (the 7 main variants and the 3 minor variants), although there has never been a "critical edition".


Iasion

hmm.....interesting..... I will have to get back to you on this one.
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Old 07-30-2003, 10:17 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by River
If you count that expression as a verse , you should count the word " AMEN" as a verse too.
Well of course I'm averse to Amen. I'm an atheist aren't I?
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Old 07-30-2003, 10:41 AM   #85
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I noticed that you completely dropped the figures in your OP. Are you in agreement with the criticisms, or did you forget about it?

If your not dropping the argument, did you look these up?
allah satan
cold hot
jesus moses
sun moon
forgiveness murder
faithfull marriage
war famine

Do they match?

The new stuff you copy and pasted from a website is the same error as in your opening posts. They are skimming through the book trying to find what matches up while ignoring what doesn't match up. Finding similarities in such a large book is not surprising. There are far more non-similarities, but they don't show up on your website.

You posted this is the science forum parroting the statistical perfection of the qur'an and then didn't show any stats and didn't answer the criticism of echidna's post nor my post from the first page.

Frankly these qur'an numbers people are not even that good or creative when compared with the bible code people, or the nostradamus guys. These guys even have found the WTC and SARS in the bible. Like I said, amateurs.

Moderators, if this is just gonna turn into a qur'an lesson, you might as well throw it into BC&H.
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Old 07-30-2003, 10:48 AM   #86
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River:

Surely Melville is the messiah, as proven HERE!

How can you doubt these plain prophecies of death?
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Old 07-30-2003, 11:28 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by River
What the Qur'an states is not wrong. For explanation please read the commentary that I included earlier.
Your explaiantion is simply and factually incorrect. Its an attempt to put a bandage on the fact that the Qu'ran, like all other ancient texts, are part products of their culture and as a result contain various mistruths contained in those cultures.

DC
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Old 07-30-2003, 12:20 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by DigitalChicken
Your explaiantion is simply and factually incorrect. .

DC

I disagree.
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Old 07-30-2003, 12:23 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nickle
I noticed that you completely dropped the figures in your OP. Are you in agreement with the criticisms, or did you forget about it?

If your not dropping the argument, did you look these up?
allah satan
cold hot
jesus moses
sun moon
forgiveness murder
faithfull marriage
war famine

I dont know what you are talking about. First of all, Allah and Satan are not polarities. In Islam, Iblis ( Satan) asked permission from G-d before G-d places Judgement on Him. He asked for respite. Satan is Subservient to G-d and is not a god himself.

Secondly Jesus and Moses are not polarities....I dont' even know what possessed you to put them together. Jesus appears 25 times in the Qur'an and the word Moses appears 165 times in the Qur'an. They are neither directly opposite or "in similitude".

Sun and Moon are not polarities either.....
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Old 07-30-2003, 12:31 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by echidna
Here's one which unfortunately only works in English.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchquran.html


... so we could always claim translation error. But ...

Adam = 25 (oddly enough)
Jesus = 28

River, doubtless you have an elaborate explanation for this ?

Edit : oops, wrong site


I dont know how you got those figures. the word , " Jesus" appears 25 times. Perhaps you included his titles like the arabic word " Masih" ( the Christ) to come up with the inflated number 28.

For a detailed breakdown of all occurences of Jesus and Adam. Take a look.

http://fakir60.tripod.com/jesus.htm
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