ex-xian

Kant said that he did away with reason to make room for faith. Do you hold to this as well? IMO, Kant's agnostic philosophy was based on a false premise; namely, a passive theory of perception. But that's another subject.

You could disprove the "invisible fairy" theory is it included testable propostions. For example, if your "invisible fairy" theory said that after you pressed the "Submit Reply" button, a fairy read the words off the screen you could figure out ways to check for the fairies. You could try pressing the "Submit Reply" button, then immediately turn off your moniter and see what happened. In any case, since there is a sufficient alternate theory to explain how your posts arrive, we can use Occum's Razor to eliminate the fairies.

My point with this ridiculous example is this: any god hypotheses include propositions that can be tested. For example, an omni-max god includes inherently contraditory claims. While it may not be possible to prove god's existence, it is a simple matter to disprove god's existence.

The_Unknown_Banana

It is not possible to disprove something which is not falsifiable though surely..? Which is why, whenever some aspect of religion is disproven, many a theist has countered with "but we just can't understand how god works", hence making any normal rules of logic not applicable to god, and making the god hypothesis non-falsifiable.

Since you cannot prove that the laws of logic apply to god, you cannot disprove god. What a crock.

[/rant]

stretch

Hi ex-xian

uh ... Kant utterly discounted the validity of metaphysics because his view was that pure reason is inherently limited in its ability to provide us with information about the world around us. We can't 'know' much if anything about the 'things-in-themselves' that we perceive in the material world. When it comes to anything 'supernatural', it is beyond the realm of knowing via pure reason. This would seem to imply that God is neither provable nor disprovable.

Kant was however a theist, but I doubt that anybody would find that his arguments in terms of practical reason convincing. I haven't read his critique of practical reason, just a tiny bit of commentary on it ....

stretch

Mr Banana,

Wanna provide some examples of things that are disproven, and the 'disproofs'?

I'm not sure what you're getting at yet ....

The_Unknown_Banana

lol, well, I agree with you. Ex-xian claims that you can disprove any hypothesis that is falsifiable, and I claim that the existance of god is non-falsifiable. You cannot disprove God's existance. He is beyond our plain of reality, or something, and hence any logical arguments (well, logical to a non-believer) are disputed by the theist, who believes in the impossible.

basically, if I said there was a dragon right behind you, then that is falsifiable, as you can just look behind you and see it (or confirm its non-existance). But if I then say it's an invisible dragon, which is ethereal (so you can't touch it) etc, then it's non-falsifiable, and might as well not exist.
(As per the dragon thread)

EstherRose

I can tell you why I believe. As a science minded person, I see God’s hand in every aspect of it. No matter what I see of nature and the physical world, I see God. I was not always a Christian, but I always believed in God.

I have the proof of the Holy Spirit. When I accepted Jesus, the Spirit sealed me in His redemption in eternity. The Spirit is not some vague indefinable thing. The Spirit is a real presence working in me (and other Christians) to change us.

First I’ll respond with why I don’t believe that Allah is the Christian God. (The first response is a major difference.) Then my response for my proof that Allah doesn’t exist.

(The words of the Koran are in black italics. The bible is in dark blue regular print.)

Differences between God and Allah:

1. God is Trinity, Allah is one only.
This is the big difference in our God and Allah. The other things I’ve listed are just additional differences. Islam denies the Trinity therefore they do not worship the same God as the Christians, or even the Jews. The Holy Spirit is in the Old Testament, as is God, and they anticipated the coming Messiah.

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh) created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is AllSufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (An-Nisa 4:171)

Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allâh is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilâh (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilâh (God -Allâh). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them. (Al-Ma'idah 5:73)

Matthew 28
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
2. God has Son (part of Trinity). Allah has no Son.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen. (Al-Ma'idah 5:116)

It befits not (the Majesty of) Allâh that He should beget a son [this refers to the slander of Christians against Allâh, by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allâh]. Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is[]. (Maryam 19:35)

3. God is Father. Allah is not.

Matthew 6
9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,

And they say: "The Most Beneficent (Allâh) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) [as the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allâh, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son ['Iesa (Christ)], and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels, etc.)]." Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing. Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent (Allâh). But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allâh) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children). (Maryam 19:88-92)

4. God loves all of us believers and unbelievers. Allah loves only those who turn to him.

Luke 15
11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.
13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.
17"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
22"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance, but the Word from Me took effect (about evildoers), that I will fill Hell with jinn and mankind together. (As-Sajdah 32:13)

5.God wants everyone to come to Him. Allah wants to afflict people for their sins.

2 Peter 3
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

And so judge (you O Muhammad SAW) between them by what Allâh has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad SAW) far away from some of that which Allâh has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allâh's Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Fâsiqûn (rebellious and disobedient to Allâh). (Al-Ma'idah 5:49)

Why I believe Allah doesn’t exist.

Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things? (Al-Baqarah 2:106)

For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present world (i.e. righteous dream seen by the person himself or shown to others), and in the Hereafter. No change can there be in the Words of Allâh, this is indeed the supreme success. (Yunus 10:64)

This renders doubt in the Koran. If the Koran is not an accurate “uncreated word of Allah” then how can Allah exist?

Differences between the Koran and the Bible.

So if you (O Muhammad SAW) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, [i.e. that your name is written in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] then ask those who are reading the Book [the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it). (Yunus 10:94)

Surely, those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh, in His Messenger Muhammad SAW and all that was revealed to him from Allâh), those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, - whosoever believed in Allâh and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Al-Ma'idah 5:69)

The above suras claim the validity of the Torah and the Bible. The suras below are in direct contradiction to the Bible. And of course there is the huge difference in the koran’s view of Jesus is only a prophet and the Christian belief that Jesus is the Son of God. Whether or not you here on this board believe in the validity of the bible, the Koran attests to its truth, so the contradictions alone render the Koran as fallible and not the “uncreated word of Allah” as muslims claim.

1. Which is the resting place of Noah’s ark?

Genesis 8
4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.

And it was said: "O earth! Swallow up your water, and O sky! Withhold (your rain)." And the water was diminished (made to subside) and the Decree (of Allâh) was fulfilled (i.e. the destruction of the people of Nûh (Noah). And it (the ship) rested on Mount Judi, and it was said: "Away with the people who are Zalimûn (polytheists and wrong-doing)!" (Hud 11:44)

2. Who is the father of Abraham?

Genesis 11
27 This is the account of Terah.

Terah became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran. And Haran became the father of Lot.

And (remember) when Ibrâhim (Abraham) said to his father Azar: "Do you take idols as âlihâ (gods)? Verily, I see you and your people in manifest error." (Al-An'am 6:74)

3. Moses found by Pharoah’s daughter or wife?

Exodus 2
5 Then Pharaoh's daughter went down to the Nile to bathe, and her attendants were walking along the river bank. She saw the basket among the reeds and sent her slave girl to get it.

Then the household of Fir'aun (Pharaoh) picked him up, that he might become for them an enemy and a (cause of) grief. Verily! Fir'aun (Pharaoh), Hâmân and their hosts were sinners. And the wife of Fir'aun (Pharaoh) said: "A comfort of the eye for me and for you. Kill him not, perhaps he may be of benefit to us, or we may adopt him as a son." And they perceive not (the result of that). (Al-Qasas 28:8-9)

[4. Jesus’ crucifixion.

Matthew 27
35When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allâh," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]: (An-Nisa 4:157)

This is another big one. The bible states that Jesus was crucified, descended into hell, was resurrected. The Koran claims otherwise. It claims that Jesus was not killed (another had taken his place) and that on a road outside of Jerusalem 3 hours later he was taken into heaven. This is not a small difference.

5. Zechariah silent until birth of his son John the Baptist.

Luke 1
20And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time."

He said: "O my Lord! Make a sign for me." Allâh said: "Your sign is that you shall not speak to mankind for three days except with signals. And remember your Lord much (by praising Him again and again), and glorify (Him) in the afternoon and in the morning." (Aali Imran 3:41)

6. The birth of Jesus.

Luke 2
6While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said: "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!" (Maryam 19:23)

Not only the difference in where Jesus was born but also in the attitude of Mary. In the bible, she was considered blessed by Jesus. The Koran indicates shame.

7. Who Jesus is.

Hebrews 1
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

The Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah [i.e. she believed in the words of Allâh and His Books (see Verse 66:12)]. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allâh does not eat). Look how We make the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth). (Al-Ma'idah 5:75)

8. God’s love is all encompassing. Allah loves only those who follow him.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[1] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allâh and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)." But if they turn away, then Allâh does not like the disbelievers. (Aali Imran 3:32)

And as for those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh) and do righteous good deeds, Allâh will pay them their reward in full. And Allâh does not like the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers). (Aali Imran 3:57)

9. God loves sinners. Allah does not.

Romans 5
8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

And fight in the Way of Allâh those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors. [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jihâd, but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)]. (Al-Baqarah 2:190)

10. The treatment of wives.

Ephesians 5
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[1] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see illconduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great. (An-Nisa 4:34)

Note the difference in how wives should be treated. Christian men are to love wives as Christ loved the church. Muslim men may beat their wives (albeit lightly) if needed.

The Bible predates the Koran, so any contradictions would either show that the Bible is false, but then the suras which claim the validity of the Bible would negate the validity of the Koran, or the contradictions would show that the Koran was false to begin with. Either way, Koran is false. If the Koran is false, then the Islamic version of God (Allah) is false. Whether or not you here on this board believe in the validity of the bible, the Koran attests to its truth, so the contradictions alone render the Koran as fallible and not the “uncreated” word of Allah as muslims claim.

Yes. The Lord knows who will accept Him and who won’t. The basic need for God is in everyone, I believe. Some reject Him, others don’t. Once we yearn for Him, He provides the way for us to come to know Him. Yes, I believe my desire to know God would still be there and that I would accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. Accepting Jesus was not a cultural thing for me. I accepted because it is the right thing to do. He is the Messiah, the Son of God sent to earth to bring us to God.

Jobar

Like a lot of threads about the really nitty-gritty hard questions, we get no theists answering. We can speculate, but since none of us believe, all we do is spin our wheels.

I would say that Calzaer is on the right track- but instead of hundreds, there are probably as many reasons as there are believers, if you split the hairs finely enough. And in my experience, none of the reasons are reasonable!

ex-xian

Right, and, as I said before, I think Kant's critique was based on a false premise, namely, a passive theory of perception. Kant's distinction between the things and the things in and of themselves fails if ones considers perception to be an active process. When you perceive something, you are not a passive agent, sitting idly by while sense data bombards you. Rather, you actively particpate, focusing you attention, concetrating on specific sensations and excluding others. An active theory of perception, which, by the way, is what psychology teaches, lends itself toward materialism.

If you do hold to Kant's agnosticism, then unless you also hold to his moral argument about god's existence, then the logical belief is agnosticsm.

I'll tell you what is a crock. If the laws of logic do not apply to god, then rational discourse about god is impossible. In that case, the cite a belief in god could, logically, imply anything. Furthermore, no one would have any right to make any meaningful statement about god's existence or attributes. You could not predicate anything about god, since any statement you make has no bearing on the truth or falsity of anything.

Exactly. Just as Sagan taught us, there is no difference between an invisible, intangible, dragon and no dragon at all. And there is no difference between a god who operates outside the laws of logic and no god at all.

Incidentally, the only major thinker who held that god was outside the laws of logic was Tertellian. His famous quote was, "What does Athens have to do with Jerusalem?" He also said that he believed in the absurd, implying that he believed because it was absurd. He was banned as a heretic from orthodox theism.

ex-xian

EstherRose--Since I believe that the bible and the koran are equally uninspired, I'll just respond to the first part of your post.
You decribe yourself as a "science minded person." Which particular discipline have you studied. I ask because science is based on a materialistic presuppostion. Once you allow a supernatural act into the scheme, literally anything can be explained without resorting to scientific explanation. When you car is running low of gas, do you rebuke the demon of emptiness and pray to god to fill the tank, or do you drive to the local gas station and "fill 'er up?"
Virtually every major religion makes the appeal to personal experience. Other religions have testimonies of changed lives. What makes your religious experience more valid than all the others? And please don't tell me that xianity is "a relationship, not a religion." That, also, is what adherents to most religions would say.

The_Unknown_Banana

lol, that's far too rational for any of the theists I've debated in real life. (Answers to that would probably be of the "You think too much, and your heart is closed to god, so you just wouldn't understand" kind)