Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Gemma Therese · 06-06-2002, 09:12 AM

Schu --

God did not take eternal life from anyone. There isn't a person alive without the potential to live everlasting life with God.

"The crime of fruit theft by two". Their crime was sybomlic -- they (as with all pople -- at one time or another) disobeyed God.

Gemma Therese

BLoggins02 · 06-06-2002, 09:31 AM

G.T.:

But still, the question remains: Why would a God who created the entire universe need or want to do such a thing?

It appears to me that much theological maneuvering is undertaken precisely to anachronistically explain "God's" reasons for doing (what seems to be) stupid and irrational things. The simpler explanation is that you're reading a collection of stories written by people who've been dead for thousands of years who needed a reason to explain why things happened to them (and, more frighteningly, needed a way to control the populace).

I am a weak atheist about deites in general, but I believe that the Christian God does NOT exist partly for this reason:

Looking around, considering the scope of the entire universe and of human affairs, the stories of Yahweh and Christ in no way do justice to the state of our existance; they are entirely too petty, and too obviously motiviated by the desires of men to explain their mishaps and control their servants.

I do not wish to be a slave to the ignorance of a simplistic and brutal people. If I must choose to canonize historical documents, I'll stick with ancient Greek philosophers. That is all.

Echo · 06-06-2002, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese:
What bothers be is all the horrible ways there are to die. To go quickly would be so merciful in such a situation. The dying part does not bother me, for I would be with God in an instant. It is how I would die.

Burning at the stake isn't really my idea of a good time.

Ohhhh..the irony..the irony...

Quote:

If I renounced my faith to ward-off would be attackers ... is there anything more cowardice in the world?

But you wouldn't be renouncing your beliefs, would you? At least not in the sense of "forsaking" or "giving up". Your beliefs would still be there; you would just be telling a nutjob what he wants to hear in order to get a gun away from your face. Unless you think that by saying "I renounce my beliefs" you really would lose them.

Are you saying you wouldn't even pretend to renounce your beliefs in order to spare your life? I guess I can admire that. It would certainly takes more guts than I have. During the days of the Inquisition, I would have professed to believe whatever the hell they wanted me to.

Those instruments of torture were just too scary.

Gemma Therese · 06-06-2002, 11:23 AM

Echo,

For example, what if I was forced to spit on the Host, or die? I would never show Christ such utter contempt, no matter what the circumstances, considering how He died for me.

However, martyrs are many times infused with grace as they die. A great number of martyrs die singing praises to God.

Gemma Therese

Lasrevinu · 06-06-2002, 12:14 PM

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" It seems that there is alot of doubts of what you truly know and believe. I respect each of you for voicing your opinions and thoughts openly. I see that there is confidence when you are among peers that think in like manner. I know I do not understand all as well. We are merely humans that are continually searching for knowledge. We rest in things we know. I know that God is real. There is not a single doubt in my heart and mind. I know He hates sin and that there is a penalty for sin. I know "God is love." I know He is faithful to me daily. I know that I at one time in my life doubted all and lived a life only for sensual pleasures. I know now that I live a fulfilled life through the power of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have a relationship with God. He completely satisfies. As I read the Word, my eyes are opened. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." If you want true understanding, Trust in Christ. He loves you and will give you a heart of love for others and a heart of understanding."But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." That is the only reason why I visit these sites. I desire to share the love of the Lord Jesus Christ with you. He has never let me down. He never will. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

daemon · 06-06-2002, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese:
For example, what if I was forced to spit on the Host, or die? I would never show Christ such utter contempt, no matter what the circumstances, considering how He died for me.

Come on, now. Take the other view, which would you prefer: your child spits on you, or your child dies. If Jesus loves humanity even one-tenth of how much it is claimed he does, Jesus's wishes should be obvious.

seebs · 06-06-2002, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by daemon:
Come on, now. Take the other view, which would you prefer: your child spits on you, or your child dies. If Jesus loves humanity even one-tenth of how much it is claimed he does, Jesus's wishes should be obvious.

Which would you rather happened, one of your children spit on you, or one of your children continued life after a small period of adjustment?

Keep in mind, implicit in the theological answer is "eternal life past physical death", so you have to weigh things differently.

Gemma Therese · 06-06-2002, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by daemon:
Come on, now. Take the other view, which would you prefer: your child spits on you, or your child dies. If Jesus loves humanity even one-tenth of how much it is claimed he does, Jesus's wishes should be obvious.

There is a difference. I am not God.

Gemma Therese

Answerer · 06-07-2002, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese:

Answerer,

I must work out my faith on a daily basis, and lately, I have been bothered by the question, Would I rather be killed, or renounce my faith in God?

Gemma Therese

[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: Gemma Therese ][/QB]

Well , this is what I'm trying to say to most christians that their faith are not forever. Furthermore, there is many things in this world that is more threatening, terrifying and terrible than death, eg torturing chamber,etc.

Answerer · 06-07-2002, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese:


For example, what if I was forced to spit on the Host, or die? I would never show Christ such utter contempt, no matter what the circumstances, considering how He died for me.

However, martyrs are many times infused with grace as they die. A great number of martyrs die singing praises to God.

Gemma Therese

Well, this is what you say now, but when it comes to reality, no one can guarantee anything much a less the faith for someone who can't help.

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06-06-2002, 09:12 AM	#51
Gemma Therese Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: new york Posts: 608	Schu -- God did not take eternal life from anyone. There isn't a person alive without the potential to live everlasting life with God. "The crime of fruit theft by two". Their crime was sybomlic -- they (as with all pople -- at one time or another) disobeyed God. Gemma Therese

06-06-2002, 09:31 AM	#52
BLoggins02 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: College Station, TX Posts: 254	G.T.: But still, the question remains: Why would a God who created the entire universe need or want to do such a thing? It appears to me that much theological maneuvering is undertaken precisely to anachronistically explain "God's" reasons for doing (what seems to be) stupid and irrational things. The simpler explanation is that you're reading a collection of stories written by people who've been dead for thousands of years who needed a reason to explain why things happened to them (and, more frighteningly, needed a way to control the populace). I am a weak atheist about deites in general, but I believe that the Christian God does NOT exist partly for this reason: Looking around, considering the scope of the entire universe and of human affairs, the stories of Yahweh and Christ in no way do justice to the state of our existance; they are entirely too petty, and too obviously motiviated by the desires of men to explain their mishaps and control their servants. I do not wish to be a slave to the ignorance of a simplistic and brutal people. If I must choose to canonize historical documents, I'll stick with ancient Greek philosophers. That is all.

06-06-2002, 11:23 AM	#54
Gemma Therese Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: new york Posts: 608	Echo, For example, what if I was forced to spit on the Host, or die? I would never show Christ such utter contempt, no matter what the circumstances, considering how He died for me. However, martyrs are many times infused with grace as they die. A great number of martyrs die singing praises to God. Gemma Therese

06-06-2002, 12:14 PM	#55
Lasrevinu New Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Va. Posts: 3	"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" It seems that there is alot of doubts of what you truly know and believe. I respect each of you for voicing your opinions and thoughts openly. I see that there is confidence when you are among peers that think in like manner. I know I do not understand all as well. We are merely humans that are continually searching for knowledge. We rest in things we know. I know that God is real. There is not a single doubt in my heart and mind. I know He hates sin and that there is a penalty for sin. I know "God is love." I know He is faithful to me daily. I know that I at one time in my life doubted all and lived a life only for sensual pleasures. I know now that I live a fulfilled life through the power of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have a relationship with God. He completely satisfies. As I read the Word, my eyes are opened. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." If you want true understanding, Trust in Christ. He loves you and will give you a heart of love for others and a heart of understanding."But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." That is the only reason why I visit these sites. I desire to share the love of the Lord Jesus Christ with you. He has never let me down. He never will. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

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