Evangelion

I have honestly lost count of the number of times I've been hit with the "anti-American" label in the last 6 weeks.

I have ceased to be amazed by the incredible lack of intelligent response which results from my counter-arguments against this claim (one of the weakest straw men in the "Idiot's Arsenal.") I have ceased to be amazed by the sheer stupidity of the claim itself. I have ceased to be amazed by the fact that 90% of the people who make it are American Christians.

But I have not yet ceased to be amazed by the number of Americans who buy into it.

Evangelion

The next time an American tells me that they live in a country where free speech is permitted and tolerated to an extent far beyond that of any other nation in the world, I shall punch them in the mouth with every ounce of strength at my disposal.

Gunnaheave

I've often wondered why civilians are expected to participate in such an essentially militaristic ritual anyway. Here's a related site, one which won't do much to improve Evangelian's respect for American tlerance.. Please note that it has an email address. I'm thinking that perhaps the petition's host could perhaps receive an email or two.

http://www.petitiononline.com/f2003us/petition.html

Vespertine

How can you be proud to be Anti-American? What does that mean exactly? Are you anti-me because I'm an American? Should I be anti-Canadian if I were against some of its policy? Should I be anti-you because you're Canadian and somehow that means you epitomize everything about your government? Have you truly studied both sides of the war? Do you know at all what Hussein has done to the people of his country? Is the girl in the article Anti-American because she chooses not to face the flag?

Philosoft

I am not sure why you think your confusion warrants violence. It certainly seems, according to the article, that everyone involved, player and critics alike, are absolutely exercising free speech. When Americans speak of "free speech," we usually mean, "free from government regulation."

I agree that bigots who publicly wish harm (or expulsion) on those with whom they ideologically differ are poor excuses for human beings, but guess what? When we tell all people they can speak freely, some particular stupid bigots are going to say particularly stupid, bigoted things. Such is the nature of free speech.

Now, when you become angry at Americans for trumpeting their free speech protections, what exactly are you objecting to?

Sauron

In the first place, it's not just that people are disagreeing with her stance. It's that they are trying to get her expelled from the team, or other such concrete actions, as a result of her stance. That goes beyond just disagreement and free speech.

In the second place, what a lot of people are pointing out here in this thread is the inherent contradiction in the views of these people. They want a war for American values, but aren't willing to extend those values to fellow citizens.

Was Evangelion kidding about the punch? I'm guessing so, because I 'know' him from his online persona. Were these rednecks kidding about their views re: this young woman's stance? I seriously doubt it.

Evangelion

Gunnaheave -

Well, you were right about it not doing much to improve my respect for American tolerance.

Having read that "petition", I am now certain that there is no hope for your nation's future.

Evangelion

Philosoft -

There is no "confusion" here. I am objecting to (a) American stupidity, (b) American bigotry, (c) American intolerance, and (d) fundamentalism.

I understand this perfectly well. The point I am making is that in America, interference from individuals appears to have replaced government interference - thereby creating a nation in which you can't really speak your mind, because someone's going to get you one way or another.

I would also like to higlight the extraordinary American penchant for overgeneralisation and simplistic thinking.

Indeed. I do not dispute this.

First and foremost, I am objecting to the way that they do it. Secondly, I am objecting to their desire to ignore the free speech protections of others.

Comments such as...

...do not reflect a nation with a healthy respect for freedom of speech. :banghead:

They reflect the actions which many people would like to undertake.

Hence Sauron's observation:

And as Sauron has also pointed out (thanks, Sauron!) I would not literally resort to physical violence. I certainly have a violent temper on me, but I have never been known to hit anyone.

Feather

I wrote an e-mail to MSNBC suggesting they reconsider having Michael Savage as a host on one of their programs.

I did this because I find his speech offensive.

Does that mean I respect his right to freely speak his mind any less? Have I done a disservice to the notion of "free speech?"

I don't think so. I believe Savage can and will continue to find outlets for his hate-filled vitriol. But my hope is that national media won't be one of said outlets. I also don't desire that the government silence Savage. His opinions are his to hold and espouse if he so chooses.

But I wouldn't condone using public media or a captive audience to pass his ideas on. No sir, I would not.

You see, Evangelion, this is indeed a question of "free speech." Why is this girl's "free speech" more important than that of persons against her?

As I wrote above, Toni Smith is using an audience that can arguably be considered captive--they paid to witness a sporting event; not her making political statements--to get her message out. And while I find calls to have her booted from the team and/or country to be shortsighted and spiteful, I don't view them as dangerous to free speech.

She chose to play the game in a certain way, and it is now coming back to bite her in the ass. Such is life in a truly free society.

Philosoft

Evangelion,

Are you actually complaining that American free speech is a myth because there exist individuals within the United States who don't agree with the overarching protections provided by the government? You think we don't have the right to be proud of our freedom because we can't ensure that everyone practices maximum tolerance all the time?