Freethought & Rationalism Archive

R P McMurphy · 07-31-2003, 09:01 AM

Hello,

I've been looking at the pictures - ya'll are definitely a good looking bunch of infidels. I'm not - but hey that's ok . . . I'm generally a non-conformist everywhere anyhow.

I wrote about a thousand words here, but deleted it all. Its boring writing about myself.

I'm interested in mathematics, physics, consciousness, artificial intelligence and other stuff. Hope I can contribute to a good discussion,

Murphy

WWSD · 07-31-2003, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by R P McMurphy
Hello,
- ya'll are definitely a good looking bunch of infidels.

Why yes, yes we are a good looking bunch of infidels.

Got any suggestions on good AI books?

R P McMurphy · 07-31-2003, 09:51 AM

Got any suggestions on good AI books?

Well, I think that Hofstader's book Godel, Escher, Bach is great. But it is 22 years old. I also liked the Emperor's New Mind by Roger Penrose. However, I think that Penrose's book was an effort to bring the concept of a "soul" in by the back door. However, he did make some good points I think.

I'm not figuring out the reply mode so well. How do you get the quotes from the previous message into the new reply?

R P McMurphy

WWSD · 07-31-2003, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by R P McMurphy

I'm not figuring out the reply mode so well. How do you get the quotes from the previous message into the new reply?

In the bottom right hand corner of the post there is a button that says quote, click that and you're good to go!

Mister Impossible · 07-31-2003, 10:06 AM

Hi, Murphy.

A.I. - Cool. Got any killer robots from the future you want to sell?

Have fun.

Farren · 07-31-2003, 12:17 PM

R P

Penrose gets pretty tortured in his stringing of thing together sometimes, but I doubt very much he's trying to get the soul in the back door.

He's on record as saying in response to attacks by Hans Moravec that he does think consciousness could be artificially created, but some fundamental issues of quantum physics must be resolved first. This is the thrust of his work.

He does make some pretty lame arguments among the fascinating stuff, like perpetuating Searles fallacious and horrible Chinese Room gedanken experiment.

Welcome, anyway

R P McMurphy · 07-31-2003, 12:49 PM

Farren,

I wish I was more knowledgable on AI than I actually am. I think that consciousness is the real frontier for science these days, though I don't hear of a lot of progress being made. There have been recent advances in the applications of neural networks - such as the facial recognition software. I wonder sometimes if AI has been sucked into the black hole of classified projects.

Can you tell me more about the new technology in this area?

Also, I have been spending some time thinking about philosophy. I see that there is a special location for this kind of thing, I should post there I guess.

But just to get warmed up, I am opposed to dualism and am a materialist. Now it seems to me that materialism is a lot less than people seem to think. For example, from a purely philosophical point of view, materialism does not require atheism.

A person could be a Christian (I'm not) and a materialist at the same time. It would simply be a matter of believing that God exists in a material form, that heaven is a real place that can be geographically located, that the soul is actually an electro-magnetic phenomena etc.

Materialism says nothing about our condition of knowledge vs. ignorance - in fact materialism would be just as much based on "faith" as would dualism - in as much as it is a matter of "faith" rather than evidence that there is no "spiritual" reality. Its the old probelm of not being able to prove the negative.

To make materialism what most people think it is would require that a person who is a materialist (already involving some amount of "faith") also be a skeptic - meaning that evidence of an objective nature would be required before accepting any proposition as valid.

And I am especially interested in the relationship between mathematics and consciousness, mathematics and religion, and mathematics and physics. A fat lot of stuff to write about I know. I sometimes despair of finding people to discuss this with so I am gld to have found the II.

Thanks,
R P McMurphy

Farren · 07-31-2003, 01:21 PM

RP, there are a lot of people here into that kind of stuff. Unfortunately, I'm not a guru, just an informed bystander

I've read GEB, The Quark and the Jaguar, The Emperors New Mind, Shadows of the Mind and a lot of "pop" science stuff related to consciousness and related issues but I'm no expert. Just an analyst/programmer.

That said, I also find it fascinating as all hell. Its one of the two reasons I got into computers: AI and Games.

I also find Buddhist and Taoist commentary on consciousness fills a BIG gap in western philosophical traditions.

I've had it pointed out to me that Existentialism and contemporary western commentaries on "qualia" (which I think is an excess term, really) address similar issues to these eastern philosophies, but theres an extraordinary depth in both that most of the western stuff I've seen doesn't come close to, or gropes at clumsily with reductionist and mechanistic language that's unsuitable.

Phew long sentence

Nice to see another enquiring mind on board.

Darwin26 · 08-01-2003, 12:18 AM

Intelligence of any kind is waaaaaaay over rated...!

sophie · 08-01-2003, 12:58 PM

R P McMurphy,
hi and welcome. Minsky is writing a book called the Emotion Machine (draft) , check it out.

Farren, here is a Serle argument which may shed new light on the matter.

07-31-2003, 09:01 AM	#1
R P McMurphy Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arkansas Posts: 12	Hello Hello, I've been looking at the pictures - ya'll are definitely a good looking bunch of infidels. I'm not - but hey that's ok . . . I'm generally a non-conformist everywhere anyhow. I wrote about a thousand words here, but deleted it all. Its boring writing about myself. I'm interested in mathematics, physics, consciousness, artificial intelligence and other stuff. Hope I can contribute to a good discussion, Murphy

07-31-2003, 09:51 AM	#3
R P McMurphy Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arkansas Posts: 12	artificial intelligence Got any suggestions on good AI books? Well, I think that Hofstader's book Godel, Escher, Bach is great. But it is 22 years old. I also liked the Emperor's New Mind by Roger Penrose. However, I think that Penrose's book was an effort to bring the concept of a "soul" in by the back door. However, he did make some good points I think. I'm not figuring out the reply mode so well. How do you get the quotes from the previous message into the new reply? R P McMurphy

08-01-2003, 12:18 AM	#9
Darwin26 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Encino, CA Posts: 806	Welcome Aboard RP Intelligence of any kind is waaaaaaay over rated...!

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-31-2003, 10:06 AM	#5
Mister Impossible Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UK Posts: 298	Hi, Murphy. A.I. - Cool. Got any killer robots from the future you want to sell? Have fun.

07-31-2003, 12:17 PM	#6
Farren Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: South Africa Posts: 2,194	R P Penrose gets pretty tortured in his stringing of thing together sometimes, but I doubt very much he's trying to get the soul in the back door. He's on record as saying in response to attacks by Hans Moravec that he does think consciousness could be artificially created, but some fundamental issues of quantum physics must be resolved first. This is the thrust of his work. He does make some pretty lame arguments among the fascinating stuff, like perpetuating Searles fallacious and horrible Chinese Room gedanken experiment. Welcome, anyway

07-31-2003, 12:49 PM	#7
R P McMurphy Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arkansas Posts: 12	Farren, I wish I was more knowledgable on AI than I actually am. I think that consciousness is the real frontier for science these days, though I don't hear of a lot of progress being made. There have been recent advances in the applications of neural networks - such as the facial recognition software. I wonder sometimes if AI has been sucked into the black hole of classified projects. Can you tell me more about the new technology in this area? Also, I have been spending some time thinking about philosophy. I see that there is a special location for this kind of thing, I should post there I guess. But just to get warmed up, I am opposed to dualism and am a materialist. Now it seems to me that materialism is a lot less than people seem to think. For example, from a purely philosophical point of view, materialism does not require atheism. A person could be a Christian (I'm not) and a materialist at the same time. It would simply be a matter of believing that God exists in a material form, that heaven is a real place that can be geographically located, that the soul is actually an electro-magnetic phenomena etc. Materialism says nothing about our condition of knowledge vs. ignorance - in fact materialism would be just as much based on "faith" as would dualism - in as much as it is a matter of "faith" rather than evidence that there is no "spiritual" reality. Its the old probelm of not being able to prove the negative. To make materialism what most people think it is would require that a person who is a materialist (already involving some amount of "faith") also be a skeptic - meaning that evidence of an objective nature would be required before accepting any proposition as valid. And I am especially interested in the relationship between mathematics and consciousness, mathematics and religion, and mathematics and physics. A fat lot of stuff to write about I know. I sometimes despair of finding people to discuss this with so I am gld to have found the II. Thanks, R P McMurphy

07-31-2003, 01:21 PM	#8
Farren Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: South Africa Posts: 2,194	RP, there are a lot of people here into that kind of stuff. Unfortunately, I'm not a guru, just an informed bystander I've read GEB, The Quark and the Jaguar, The Emperors New Mind, Shadows of the Mind and a lot of "pop" science stuff related to consciousness and related issues but I'm no expert. Just an analyst/programmer. That said, I also find it fascinating as all hell. Its one of the two reasons I got into computers: AI and Games. I also find Buddhist and Taoist commentary on consciousness fills a BIG gap in western philosophical traditions. I've had it pointed out to me that Existentialism and contemporary western commentaries on "qualia" (which I think is an excess term, really) address similar issues to these eastern philosophies, but theres an extraordinary depth in both that most of the western stuff I've seen doesn't come close to, or gropes at clumsily with reductionist and mechanistic language that's unsuitable. Phew long sentence Nice to see another enquiring mind on board.

08-01-2003, 12:58 PM	#10
sophie Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: On the road to extinction. . . Posts: 1,485	R P McMurphy, hi and welcome. Minsky is writing a book called the Emotion Machine (draft) , check it out. Farren, here is a Serle argument which may shed new light on the matter.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.