Sue Sponte

Thanks for the interesting responses. I am relieved to learn that christianity is not founded on the bible. It's founded, apparently, in the fact that people believe it. It's now all clear to me.

See you at church.

More seriously:

Please explain then what the foundation is to believe in the christian god. You have the opportunity to convince me that the logic is flawed, but merely stating that much isn't good enough.

I asked above what the foundation of christianity is. Please tell me. So far, the argument has been that people believe in it.

And let me add a point of clarification: quoting christian scholars on what they think doesn't add anything, except to show that there are others who think like you. I understand that people think like you, what you need to explain is whether it is rational for those people to do so. So far, the responses have been long on words and short on any foundation for the beliefs.

Tercel

Glad to be of service. And here I was thinking I was wasting my time spelling out the basics!


BTW, do you think you could be convinced that the existence of God is one of those really basic obvious things you've overlooked? ~evil grin~

Colander of Truth

Just insert the IPU (Invisible Pink Unicorn) for all his references, to God, implied or explicit, and let him deal with it.

Bob

Vinnie

Its like losing the car keys

Vinnie

How can something be invisible and pink at the same time

Tercel

Exactly.
Seriously, have you ever known anyone who upon seeing a Bible said "Wow, look it's the inerrant word of God! Tell me what it says so I can believe it!" and then converted to Christianity for that reason? Of course not.
Your standard convert gets convinced of God's existence, hears the gospel about Jesus and converts. Then, maybe a month down the road in Church hears the preacher expounding on the greatness of the "WORD OF GOD!" and accepts inerrancy and sola scriptura on the basis of the preacher's authority.
What is the "foundation" of that person's faith? The Bible?

In all seriousness, nobody picks the Bible at random over other holy books (like the Koran for example) says "This is INERRANT" and then believes everything it says. People might be very stupid sometimes, but not that stupid. Belief in inerrancy and the supreme greatness of the Bible inevitably comes after acceptance of the core tenets of the Christian religion.

If you're asking what I think you're asking, then hopefully this -which I wrote a month ago in response to a similar question- answers it:
(I've added here a few annotations in [brackets])

--------------------------
Now, my belief that God exists is a philosophically arrived at one. It's pretty damn strong: as I find the logical arguments immensely persuasive. My belief that Christianity is the most true religion is (comparatively) weak.
I'm rather a religious pluralist: God is God is God whether one calls him YHWH, Allah, Djlasjfsad or anything else. Of course there is a gray area and black: Some cultures ideas of God seem to me fairly dodgy, others having little of worth whatsoever. (Of course I don't think they'll burn in hell because of it or anything like that: I'm just pointing out that the common idea "all religions are equally true" is silly (and that I don't agree with it) because if God exists them some peoples ideas are obviously going to be closer to the truth than others)

The concept of God I arrive at from philosophical considerations seems to fit best with the omni (or close enough to avoid the logical contradictions of the OMNI-God) monotheist Gods. That seems to suggest that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are most worthy candidates for the "most true religion". Of the three I find Christianity to have the most merit. In no particular order, and off the top of my head (so I might well miss some):

I find it's moral teachings admirable. [The New Testament contains rather and lot of commands to be good people and do good to others]

I find it's basic theme of fall-salvation-redemption provides good explanatory power. [ie it explains why the world is screwed, and feelings of a need for improvement, nicely]

I find the concepts of heaven hell as articulated by such christian CS Lewis and the Eastern Orthodox tradition, intrinsically worthy ideas. [If God created the world and he cared about us, then these proposed ideas seem likely to me]

I find it's teachings on the loving nature of God (as opposed to the other two) nice, and despite the argument from evil/suffering feel that such a God is probably more probable than the unknowable distant God or the capricious God typically described by the other religions. [Okay, I confess to wanting to believe God is good and loving, but also I can construct a "pascal-wager" style argument to show that that's the best type of God to believe in]

I have come across numerous modern-day Christian miracle claims I consider reasonably believable (don't worry I'm not exceptionally gullible: I'm damn skeptical of 99.9% of the ones I hear), whereas I have not come across any convincing ones in other religions (though I admit that the fact that I've grown up in a culture where Christianity is the dominent religion influences the statistics here greatly. I also have no problem with miracles occuring outside of the most true religion, I simply haven't found any I thought were convincing to date).

I tend to see my own "spiritual experiences" as well as gifts of the spirit (I confess to Pentecostal leanings - at least on occasions I'm not attacking them for gross stupidy, ignorance, or imbecilic doctrine) as evidence of Christianity over other religions.

Christianity, out of all religions, is (on the whole when not abused, or should I say: Has the potential to be) simply the nicest, best, most coherent, logical, scientific, believable; and has great explanatory power, has the most power to change the world for the better etc. [Despite the amusing opinions some people here have about "evil" Christianity ]
------------------------------

That depends on what you mean by "foundation". Are you referring to how somebody comes to be a Christian -ie the process of conversion? This is fairly vague at the best of times and can involve logical arguments, experiences, emotions, friends etc. Or is the question one of how do you, once a Christian, distinguish valid from invalid theology? That's a huge question. Answers would include things like:
Does the Bible say anything related?
How strongly does it say it and is it consistent with itself in what it says?
Is what it says consistent with logic, and other established theology?
What have Christian theologians in the past taught?
Does modern Biblical scholarship have anything to say of relevance?
What different viewpoints do modern Christians have on the question and why?
etc.

Greg2003

Its a mystery. You're not supposed to get it. You have to have faith to get it. You need to study invisible pink unicorns before you can question their existence. It's definately not a contradiction! Well, ok, it is a contradiction, but only if you have a fundamentalist logic about it. Don't tell people that invisible pink unicorns can't logically exist, because it will hurt them emotionally. Why can't you get this?!

Tercel

If you could see it, it would be pink.


I believe that is the standard response to your question...

copernicus

I don't think that the existence of God is in any way "obvious", but I do think that many religious people delude themselves when they think that they are in any way different from atheists. Atheists are skeptical of all gods. Theists are lapsed skeptics only when it comes to one god (or a tiny number of all those that have been imagined). In the end, what is really common and basic among humans is skepticism of most gods. ~benevolent grin~

Vinnie

Tercel, I think that response kind of ignores the scientific definition and understanding of that tiny part of the electromagnetic spectrum known as ''visible light". But don't tell the atheists that their invisible pink deity is demonstrated to be false by modern science



Vinnie