brighid

Pz,

Sorry ... your point wasn't entirely clear to me. I was addressing your point that somehow desperation equated to not good and I inturn equivocate not good to equal somehow immoral.

Again ... how are doctors exploiting women if they chose to undergo this procedure, if harvesting eggs not only helps infertile couples, but also is the foreground for discovering the cures for illnesses that devastate mankind?

Although I would rather have been able to have done things differently, as would most women ... there really isn't a good way to go about getting the biological materials necessary to further scientific study in this area OR to harvest viable eggs for infertile couples wishing to conceive a baby.

The situation is certainly not perfect, but it certainly isn't horrible or except perhaps in the worst cases exploitive.

Could you further clarify your position on desperation and how that equates with the goodness/badness/moral/immoral issues you wish to raise?

Brighid

red robot

However, the overall effect is for the good, no? Or at least these actions are done with good intentions. Doctors/researchers are paying people for 'blood and pain,' but that blood/egg/marrow etc. is being used to help others. I suppose overall good, though, doesn't ensure morality for the singular elements of the 'overall' ...

Also, Brighid mentions that she was 'desparate' in her case. You (pz) say that the doctors acted immorally, taking advantage of her situation to harvest her eggs. But she did benefit from the situation (as did the couple and the doctor), even if hers was a monetary benefit. Why does the ethics of trading money for eggs differ from that of trading warm-fuzzy-helping-others feeling for eggs?

AnthonyAdams45

But when young men part with blood and tissue, as Willis McGehee did on the football field during the Fiesta Bowl, many think its a shame he has gone through such a debilitating injury for no money, in fact, losing money.

Isn't the whole notion of paying a wage for labor, especially dangerous labor, as exploitative as as paying an egg donor? I mean, do you think steelworkers, miners, high steel construction workers, or oil riggers would do the highly dangerous, often painful work they did if they didn't get paid for it. And many of them, especially in mining communities are as desparate as our female college egg-salesperson.

I feel a chorus of "Joe Hill" coming on...

99Percent

People, whether its women donating eggs, football players risking their spinal chords, or steel workers falling into ore pits, can perfectly decide for themselves.

It's not that they are actually forced to endure the job. They are offered the opportunity with a due compensation of which they decide to accept or not. This in turns automatically regulates the supply and demand for the job in hand and therefore the price involved in the deal.

AnthonyAdams45

'People, whether its women donating eggs, football players risking their spinal chords, or steel workers falling into ore pits, can perfectly decide for themselves.'

So no one can be coerced to do something for money? Or is coercion even possible? That is, I can always choose to die, can't I? Seems strange to define away the whole notion of 'coercion.' Does away with forced confessions, extortion, and many forms f perjury.

alek0

My problem with egg donations and fertility treatments in general is that women are frequently not fully informed on the procedure (risks, side effects, pain involved, and chance of success).

brighid

After leaving the conversation for the evening I thought about it more, specifically the potential exploitation of poor and or indigent women. Also, doctors exploiting women for their eggs.

At least in regard to donations for infertile couples I don't believe there is anything to worry over. Firstly, the infertile couple is the one paying for the eggs, not the doctor. The doctor simply facilitates the necessary procedure for both the donor and the couple. All of my expenses were paid for by the couple who chose me as their donor. Secondly, infertile couples and fertility clinics aren't advertising in the ghetto, are the welfare counter or in any other economically depressed area. They are advertising in college newspapers though because of the age of the women, specifically because their eggs are the most viable because of their youth and because couples choosing a donor are looking for very specific characteristics in a donor. Thirdly, because of the great expense a couple must endure in order to achieve a successful fertilization of this nature they require a lot of capital/cash. These couples tend to be (although not always the case) upper-middle class white professionals. They aren't looking to couple their DNA with welfare mothers, crack whores, on the poorly educated who find themselves in severely economically depressed situations.

They are looking for healthy, attractive, Caucasian females of a certain age and either entering continued education or already completed that education. The girls that I know who "turned me on" to this were from Case-Western, Carnegie Mellon and Harvard, not women from Cabrenie Green or the barrios of LA.

A woman MUST be chosen, not simply go into a fertility center and say, "Hey ... I want to donate my eggs for cash ... hook me up!"
A woman could never be chosen, and some women because of their desirable genetic traits will be chosen often.

I also thought more about the desperation aspect, my own situation and why I didn not undergo the procedure again when I certainly could have used the cash. Well ... it was because I didn't "need" the money badly enough to feel the effort was worth it. It's not easy, really ... in any sense of the word.

My husband and I discussed the option of having me do it again because we could have used the money, but we decided that we just didn't need the money that much to warrant it.

The dynamic of this specific donor relationship almost requires a deep need and or desperation because of the nature of the procedure. It isn't like donating your blood or semen and it requires a much higher incentive. I wouldn't do it again, and now that I am past 30 I am ineligible.

Are some women going to get exploited? I suppose they will. Are women uninformed about what the consequences may be down the road? Quite possibly, and this should be addressed.

Now, what if I hadn't been in a situation where I needed to protect my child and the option was presented to me and I needed to instead pay off student loans, of replace the hunk of junk car I had, or credit card debt was mounting, or I needed a down payment for a home? Would it be wrong/immoral to take the action then? Are doctors obliged to know my intentions for donating and thereby decide whether or not I should or should not donate? Does motivation actually factor into the morality of this issue? Or should it?

Women, just like any other patient undergoing any sort of medical procedure should be fully informed about any and all possibilities. Overall, I do think doctors do their best job with this but something simply cannot be accurately predicted, especially when it comes to subjective things like pain tolerance. My procedure may have been just as painful as someone elses, but because I have a higher threshold for pain I didn't perceive it as painful.

Finally ... as to poor and indigent women coming into to donate for since or cloning ... I believe the same set of principles applies as does with the infertile couples. Certain groups of people, specifically the poor, uneducated and perhaps those with risky lifestyles (such as drug and alcohol abuse, and risky sexual practices) aren't likely to be considered suitable donors. One could more readily argue that some racism exists then the immorality of the actual donation of eggs, regardless of circumstance or motivation. The fact is that doctors, infertile couples and scientists want healthy, strong eggs from young females who exhibit certain and desirable characteristics. Also, women aren't lining up in droves to donate their eggs because they DO know, or will know that this procedure, unless warranted by outside, mitigating circumstances aren't going to chose to do this. They are motivated by needs that aren't altogether altruistic, possibly because of a desperate situation but in the end relatively little harm happens to anyone. In fact, in general more good comes from this.

I really hope my couple was able to conceive and if they weren't I hope that the fertilized eggs that remain (if any do) may someday be used to help find cures for diseases that may someday save millions of men, women and children from suffering terrible fates. If my desperate situation was the catalyst for helping others, and in turn helping remove my desperate situation I can see no harm has been done. Perhaps I was used, or even exploited because I was vulnerable. All I can say is thank goodness I was able to take advantage of this situation and do not only what was right for me and my family, but in turn help another desperate family.

Brighid

brighid

Alek,

In regard to your concerns I will tell you what I was told and I believe it to be pretty boiler plate:

The told me they could not gauge what my pain level would actually be, but they provided me with examples of the worst patients said the experienced, the mild and the minimal cases. They told me they would do all they could to lessen my pain and/or discomfort but because of the very subjective and unpredictable nature of pain they could not say with any certainty that I would have NO pain. They did say that the vast majority of women experience discomfort from the pressure and that I would likely be sore for 1-3 days following the procedure.

They were also very plain about the success they may or may not have in harvesting my eggs. They gave averages and told me what they were looking for. I would be paid a specific amount if they were unable to remove any eggs, but the full amount if they were able to get any.

I was closely monitored and my injections were changed accordingly.

I was told of the known risks and provided extensive information before I ever came into the office for an evaluation. They gave me the worst case scenarios for short and long term consequences. I weighed those consequences and chose to proceed.

Now, I could have ignored all that they told me and then cried foul later on. Is there the possibility that later on in life I will suffer ill consequnces? Yes. I was willing to risk it. Is it possible that I will later feel the risk was not worth the result? I suppose, but I also suppose that is the risk one takes with most things. Unfortunately, I think the asthma medications I have had to take most of my life will do more damage to my body in the long term then this procedure ... but I have to breathe you know

I don't think my doctors office did a poor job in explaining anything to me. They made me no guarantees, but provided me with what they did know. The procedure was difficult, they provided lots of support and had I not known that what I was doing was going to help my son and this couple ... I am not sure I could have continued. Giving yourself injections is difficult at 1st and I was a bit freaked out. I knew I was giving a desperate couple a chance to experience the joys and pains of pregnancy and parenthood. Believe me ... what I went through was nothing compared to what the woman and her husband had to endure in order to conceive.

Brighid

Dr. Retard

How does this discriminate against the poor? As to turning people into meat machines, insofar as I understand it, I don't object to it. What's so bad about turning people into meat machines? Maybe you have a secret meaning in mind?