Freethought & Rationalism Archive

luvluv · 11-15-2002, 07:40 AM

I'm sorry, none of what you said actually matters. I don't know what any of those words mean, and I'm not at all sure that I would be happier or the world would be a better place (for whom by the way) if I knew a lot of poetry or knew how to paddle a kayak.

I just don't see why it matters what people think about evolution. Does the average person on the street have any kind of working knowledge of calculus, biochemistry, astronomy, particle physics, philosophy, etc? So why should we be so worried that they don't know or don't believe in evolution? In fact, shouldn't we be more worried about the fact that most of them can't even do consumer-level math and that they have no real knowledge of how our system of government works?

I'm sorry folks, but this should fall way down on the list of our priorities. I understand that it might stick in your craw if evolution is your "thing", but it is really non-essential to most of us. You're becoming as silly as the creationists.

tgamble · 11-15-2002, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
I'm sorry, none of what you said actually matters. I don't know what any of those words mean, and I'm not at all sure that I would be happier or the world would be a better place (for whom by the way) if I knew a lot of poetry or knew how to paddle a kayak.

I just don't see why it matters what people think about evolution. Does the average person on the street have any kind of working knowledge of calculus, biochemistry, astronomy, particle physics, philosophy, etc? So why should we be so worried that they don't know or don't believe in evolution?

They vote.

pz · 11-15-2002, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
I'm sorry, none of what you said actually matters. I don't know what any of those words mean, and I'm not at all sure that I would be happier or the world would be a better place (for whom by the way) if I knew a lot of poetry or knew how to paddle a kayak.

The world would be a better place for everyone if we all appreciated an education. Without an intellectual life, we aren't any different than slugs.

Quote:

I just don't see why it matters what people think about evolution. Does the average person on the street have any kind of working knowledge of calculus, biochemistry, astronomy, particle physics, philosophy, etc? So why should we be so worried that they don't know or don't believe in evolution? In fact, shouldn't we be more worried about the fact that most of them can't even do consumer-level math and that they have no real knowledge of how our system of government works?

So your argument is that people are already damned stupid, so why should we worry if they get even stupider?

Quote:

I'm sorry folks, but this should fall way down on the list of our priorities. I understand that it might stick in your craw if evolution is your "thing", but it is really non-essential to most of us. You're becoming as silly as the creationists.

You really aren't paying much attention.

I agreed. I don't think you or anyone needs to be stuffed with evolutionary biology...except for the fact that your blithe, apathetic acceptance of ignorance is allowing a particularly destructive, anti-intellectual poison taint public education. If you (and your fellow ignorami) were to consistently vote against the dilution of education with superstitious myth, we'd happily leave you to watch TV, and not disturb you with all those ten-dollar concepts.

Do you mind if we try to teach your children and your neighbor's children as well as we possibly can?

scigirl · 11-15-2002, 09:03 AM

Luvluv,

In regards to your question, does it really matter if people accept evolution? Well for most daily matters - probably not. Can an engineer, or a math teacher, or a bus driver, do their job well without accepting this fundamental tenet of biology? Sure.

But when a large part of our society is taught lies about science, how effective is our society going to be in making new discoveries in human biology, or ecology, or medicine?

I sort of alluded to why I care if people accept evolution in my first post. Here it is again, with parts in bold:

Quote:

Originally posted by scigirl:
Science (i.e. evolution) has loads of things to say about why we get diseases, why we are violent, why we cheat on each other, etc, etc, etc. Are we going to let a few fundamentalists allow our current society to make the same ludicrous mistake that the people in the 3 scenes made? Our future as a human race depends on our ability to understand ourselves. Science has given us the tools and data to understand a great many things about the universe. Now let's see what it has to say about us.

I bolded the relevant part.

I'v also discussed this question at length in other threads. Here's one:
<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=001126&p=" target="_blank">One reason why accepting evolution may be important </a>

Quote:

When a creationist rejects his/her religious explanation of the creation of humans in favor of the scientific one, a whole new door is opened up. Instead of obese humans being guilty of gluttony, perhaps they have a genetic disorder? Instead of people with drug addictions being shunned and locked away in jails, maybe now we can think about finding cures for addictive behaviors? And mental illness. . . instead of trying to cast out demons, let's try to understand why the brain, which is another organ just like a kidney, sometimes malfunctions and what can we do about it?

I wrote earlier in another thread that I don't necessarily worry what YEC scientists are doing, but rather what conclusions/studies are they not accepting? The fact that they believe humans are a special creation, different from all animals, could be profoundly affecting their worldview in ways we haven't even considered.

There are some other great responses there. . . check them out.

Also this thread has several answers to your question, started by zzang:

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=001581&p=" target="_blank">Why are you so quick to defend evolution?</a>

Here are my favorite answers to the question:

Quote:

Doubting Didymus:
We just don't like to see religious zealots trying to undermine the hard won progress of scientific knowledge.

Quote:

Valentine Pontifex:
I oppose creationism because I am a patriot.

I am a patriot for the human race. Things that impede science are not good for humanity.

Quote:

Darwin's Terrier:
Undermining evolution is undermining all science, because the same methods that indicate evolution are used throughout science. Science works by finding coherent explanations. Hypotheses must fit in with everything else we know. Attacking just evolution is not possible. Attacking evolution also inevitably attacks all of biology: anatomy, physiology, immunology, genetics, medicine; biochemistry and hence the chemistry used throughout industry; ecology and biogeography; geology and geophysics; cosmology, astronomy and chunks of physics. If you reject one, because they are all interlinked, you reject them all.

Quote:

Wyz_sub10:
Anti-evolutionists are ignorant to the advances and benefits evolutionary theory contribute to medicine, genetic research and forensic science (among other disciplines).

If evolution is deemed "unacceptable" based on personal fears, what next? Nothing can be safe from attack because all scientific knowldege is acquired in exactly the same manner used to develop, investigate, accept and APPLY the concept of evolution.

Evolution defenders are not just defending evolution, they are defending human understanding and development.

Quote:

Albion:
If children go through school not hearing about all the branches of science that the Religious Right doesn't like, they woun't be properly equipped to take degrees in science and to follow careers in it. They woun't be equipped with the basics of critical thinking, for one thing. And if you think you can make up the shortfall with imported scientists, I wonder if that's realistic. People aren't going to want to come over here to do science if it means having their children attend schools where science is mutilated beyond recognition.

Quote:

scigirl:
The creationist movement is a symbol, for me, of a much larger problem - and that is lack of science education and understanding in our society. Biology is going to play a more increasing role in our lives - with the advances in stem cell research, functional genomics (using our DNA and RNA profiles to make disease predictions) and so on. Social problems such as obesity, addiction, and violence are now being discovered to have biological, and thus evolutionary, explanations. But we have a long way to go: How can we progress as a society if over half the population doesn't buy one of the fundamental tenets of biology?

Ok is that enough reasons for you?

So luvluv, I think a more relevant and approproate question is, Why aren't you fighting for acceptance of basic science too?

scigirl

Edited to fix UBB code

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: scigirl ]

scigirl · 11-15-2002, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
Does the average person on the street have any kind of working knowledge of calculus, biochemistry, astronomy, particle physics, philosophy, etc? So why should we be so worried that they don't know or don't believe in evolution?

I'm worried about all of it. Your argument is a a straw man - are you assuming that because we are focusing on evolution in this forum (go figure, look at the title of it) means that we aren't concerned about the other subjects?

Like I said earlier, the fact that many people don't understand or accept a basic tenet of biology is a symptom of a much larger problem. But to solve this problem, we need to look at its root causes. In this particular case, it is partly the fault of fundamentalist religions, who equate accepting this basic tenet of science with worshipping the devil. That can't be helping matters much.

And, since all sciences relate to each other in some way, I think that increasing student's knowledge and desire in one area will automatically improve their cognition in the other areas. Honestly, in the lower grades I feel that we should throw out all the sciences and replace them with one class: Introduction to critical thought and the scientific method. Teach the kids how we learn things.

Then in junior high/high school, they can learn the details.

scigirl

Happy Wonderer · 11-15-2002, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
I'm sorry, none of what you said actually matters. I don't know what any of those words mean, and I'm not at all sure that I would be happier or the world would be a better place (for whom by the way) if I knew a lot of poetry or knew how to paddle a kayak...
I'm sorry folks, but this should fall way down on the list of our priorities. I understand that it might stick in your craw if evolution is your "thing", but it is really non-essential to most of us. You're becoming as silly as the creationists.

Because if people don't understand evolution there is little chance that they will understand antibiotic resistance. That was the point of my story. The exact same thing is true of farmers -- without understanding that pest populations evolve to defeat pesticides, you are doomed to dumping ever larger quantities of pesticides of diminishing effectiveness.

Policy makers, farmers, and the drug addicts in Detroit (see the thread on resistant staph

...) all need to understand at least the basic concepts of evolution.

HW

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Happy Wonderer ]

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Happy Wonderer ]

Happy Wonderer · 11-15-2002, 10:34 AM

LuvLuv, here is a multiple-choice question.

What is the most important reason to take all of the antibiotics prescribed for you, even if you feel better before you have used them all?

A) To keep you from giving the antibiotics to your friends, which would limit the drug company's profits and make it impossible to develop new drugs.
B) Because the Doctor says to, and the Doctor is an authority figure who has to be followed if you want to get better.
C) Because germ "survivors" of partial treatment are likely to be somewhat resistant to the antibiotic, making future treatment more difficult.
D) Because it is dangerous to dispose of drugs in the trash.

HW

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Happy Wonderer ]

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Happy Wonderer ]

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Happy Wonderer ]

scigirl · 11-15-2002, 11:56 AM

Happy Wonderer,

The answer is B, correct?

sci-doc

pz · 11-15-2002, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scigirl:
The answer is B, correct?

You wish. You'll learn soon enough that the correct answer is A.

Bubba · 11-15-2002, 12:50 PM

Actually, I'm almost a,little bit offended by luvluv's thinking that we think about this too much.

Here's why...

1. Everyone here likes the debate-discussion on evolution or they wouldn't be here.

2. Creationists have launched a direct attack on the credibility of science and scientists. In the process they have borne "false witness" against people who have merely wanted to understand the natural world.

3. Creationists threaten public and private education with their rhetoric and demand for equal time. Also, as more people become creationists it's less politically justifiyable to fund research in evolutionary Biology.

4. Creationists push people's interests away from real science by writing psudoscience books and marketing them. If someone walks into Borders with 20 bucks to spend and buys Wells "Icons" that's one more person who is misinformed about the natual world and also honestly twenty bucks that could have been spent on a real book about, say Geology.

5. Creationists misrepresent history by trying to incorporate certain things (worldwide flood, tower of Babel) that can't have happened in a literal sense if our understanding of secular history is true.

6. Creationists are often abrasive and demeaning to anyone who doesn't believe in "creation." Certainly not all creationists fit this profile, but plenty of them do.

7. (Some) Creationists put false panic into people by making them think they'll go to Hell and burn if they accept the empirical data about what our planet is really like. Thus creationists in some cases could actually drive people away from both science and religion by making people disbelieve science and making them frustrated with thier religion at the same time.

8. I personally like winning debates and in an honest debate there is no way a creationist can win. Thus I enjoy debating the topic with people.

9. Creationists allow dishonest people like Phil Johnson and Kent Hovind to make a killing spreading lies. I hate to see anyone lied to, and this is no exception.

I'd say we've got a right to be pretty upset myself.

Bubba

11-15-2002, 10:34 AM	#27
Happy Wonderer Veteran Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Washington, the least religious state Posts: 5,334	LuvLuv, here is a multiple-choice question. What is the most important reason to take all of the antibiotics prescribed for you, even if you feel better before you have used them all? A) To keep you from giving the antibiotics to your friends, which would limit the drug company's profits and make it impossible to develop new drugs. B) Because the Doctor says to, and the Doctor is an authority figure who has to be followed if you want to get better. C) Because germ "survivors" of partial treatment are likely to be somewhat resistant to the antibiotic, making future treatment more difficult. D) Because it is dangerous to dispose of drugs in the trash. HW [ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Happy Wonderer ] [ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Happy Wonderer ] [ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Happy Wonderer ]</p>

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11-15-2002, 07:40 AM	#21
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	I'm sorry, none of what you said actually matters. I don't know what any of those words mean, and I'm not at all sure that I would be happier or the world would be a better place (for whom by the way) if I knew a lot of poetry or knew how to paddle a kayak. I just don't see why it matters what people think about evolution. Does the average person on the street have any kind of working knowledge of calculus, biochemistry, astronomy, particle physics, philosophy, etc? So why should we be so worried that they don't know or don't believe in evolution? In fact, shouldn't we be more worried about the fact that most of them can't even do consumer-level math and that they have no real knowledge of how our system of government works? I'm sorry folks, but this should fall way down on the list of our priorities. I understand that it might stick in your craw if evolution is your "thing", but it is really non-essential to most of us. You're becoming as silly as the creationists.

11-15-2002, 11:56 AM	#28
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	Happy Wonderer, The answer is B, correct? sci-doc

11-15-2002, 12:50 PM	#30
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	Actually, I'm almost a,little bit offended by luvluv's thinking that we think about this too much. Here's why... 1. Everyone here likes the debate-discussion on evolution or they wouldn't be here. 2. Creationists have launched a direct attack on the credibility of science and scientists. In the process they have borne "false witness" against people who have merely wanted to understand the natural world. 3. Creationists threaten public and private education with their rhetoric and demand for equal time. Also, as more people become creationists it's less politically justifiyable to fund research in evolutionary Biology. 4. Creationists push people's interests away from real science by writing psudoscience books and marketing them. If someone walks into Borders with 20 bucks to spend and buys Wells "Icons" that's one more person who is misinformed about the natual world and also honestly twenty bucks that could have been spent on a real book about, say Geology. 5. Creationists misrepresent history by trying to incorporate certain things (worldwide flood, tower of Babel) that can't have happened in a literal sense if our understanding of secular history is true. 6. Creationists are often abrasive and demeaning to anyone who doesn't believe in "creation." Certainly not all creationists fit this profile, but plenty of them do. 7. (Some) Creationists put false panic into people by making them think they'll go to Hell and burn if they accept the empirical data about what our planet is really like. Thus creationists in some cases could actually drive people away from both science and religion by making people disbelieve science and making them frustrated with thier religion at the same time. 8. I personally like winning debates and in an honest debate there is no way a creationist can win. Thus I enjoy debating the topic with people. 9. Creationists allow dishonest people like Phil Johnson and Kent Hovind to make a killing spreading lies. I hate to see anyone lied to, and this is no exception. I'd say we've got a right to be pretty upset myself. Bubba

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