sakrilege

This answers my question. Since I was raised catholic I've seen people pick a church just based on denomination and nothing else.

Thanks, Susan

Mediancat

I have to say, most of the Nondenominational Christians I've known -- one of whom I've been friends with for over ten years -- have been, though very conservative in their religious beliefs, also very easy to deal with in person. They haven't pressed these beliefs on me, and they've been quite willing to have rational conversations about our differences.

And differences we have; we agree on almost nothing politically, much less religiously. But it's a lot easier to talk to them than it has been to various Catholics, Baptists and Jews with whom I have a lot more in common. My theory there is that the nondenominationals are quite secure in their beliefs, and therefore have no internal need to bash others' beliefs over the head to prove their own worth.

I've even gotten some of my best religious humor from these folks, though the best one has to be delivered orally and can't be repeated here.

Rob aka Mediancat

sakrilege

Got me wondering, where do non-denominational ministers get 'ordained' or whatever it is that qualifies as becoming a preacher?

Susan

David Bowden

Hi sakrilege.

You asked: Got me wondering, where do non-denominational ministers get 'ordained' or whatever it is that qualifies as becoming a preacher?

All you have to do is set up shop. There's no official test you have to pass. Government doesn't regulate religion in this country and it makes it easy to start your own religion. If you own or can arrange the use of property for services, and especially if you can generate some income, you're in business.

There are certain things a self-appointed minister might want to do with his church, such as form a corporation or become tax-exempt, and these do require a certain amount of legal work, but anymore you could probably get a book from a Christian publisher on how to take care of the basics.

On "what is a nondenominational church" - It's sometimes hard to determine what a denomination is, and whether a church belongs to a denomination or not. Once you have a feel for the different ways churches are organized, you get some idea of what a non-denominational church is about. Theologically they're all over the map but they tend to lean conservative-evangelical, with varying service formats and practices.

For instance, the Roman Catholic church could be designated a denomination, but within it are several traditions and schools of thought, many with 'populations' bigger than all but the largest protestant denominations. So are there many Catholic denominations, or is Catholicism one denomination? (Some Catholics might argue that they're not a denomination at all; rather they're just the true Church, from which the various sects and denominations have sprung.)

Some denominations are more loosely organized than others. Baptist congregations are notorious for swapping denominations - They'll be "Southern" one year, "American" another, "independent" or "freewill" another. Since the property belongs to the congregation and not the denomination, there's little top-down authority. So that sort of denomination is like a loose voluntary collective, quite different from the fixed hierarchy in the Catholic or Anglican "denominations".

Non-denominational churches are typically led by individuals (almost always males) who are convinced of the truth of their interpretation of scripture and their sense of proper congregational governance. Personality cults and nepotism are all too often features of independent churches, but some operate under better leadership with more congregational oversight.

Generally, they start off not wanting anything to do with "denominationalism," the "we're right and you're going to hell" snobbery that Christians too often display towards one another. Despite their desire not to become like denominations, the most successful "non-denoms" have more members than many long-established denominations, and eventually their doctrines and practices mature to the point where certain things set them apart from other denominations and non-denoms.

Inevitably this leads to the same attitude that prompted people to leave their church for a non-denom in the first place. This is probably a sociological inevitability. Ever since the Reformation, wherever two or more have gathered in Jesus' name, there's probably going to be a split at some point.

Currently in America, many of these independent churches are thriving because they're more free to experiment with format and theology than denominational churches are, and they can respond faster to cultural changes due to the ability of the leaders to independently follow the trends they think will appeal to the most people.

This, plus a tendency to supplement basic religious teaching with 'practical' teaching on matters like personal growth and money management, is a recipe for fast growth and 'involved' membership. For folks looking for "community" and an optimistic, upbeat approach to Christian life, these churches are just the thing.

Quite often, the most successful of these nondenominational churches will set up shop in a new area, with the new church operating as a dependent satellite of the main church. And once this happens a few times, they become a rather oxymoronic-sounding entity: a network of nondenominational churches. They are a de facto "denomination" even if they sometimes don't like to admit that that's what they've become.

Some non-denoms, like the Rhema and Vineyard churches, would seem to be more like denominations to me. In fact, these, like many of the more successful of these fast-sprouting superchurches, are organized more like franchise restaurant operations than traditional religious denominations. The organization is small and the "product quality", presentation and management is pretty tightly regulated by the folks who control the brand - either the founder and his family (Rhema) or the corporation (Vineyard).

That, and they make money, a lot of money. Most denominations historically haven't had a prominent retail operation going out in the foyer. Something about Jesus's liberal use of a whip kept Christians from buying and selling on church property for centuries - but this is modern entrepreneurial America, after all, and WWJD in this context?

There are both denominational and non-denom Bible colleges.

If I remember correctly, Moody Bible College in downtown Chicago is not related to a denomination. There are others. You might consider Rhema Bible College to be non-denominational or denominational depending on how you categorize that network of churches.

On the other hand, my own former denomination, the Church of the Nazarene, operates several accredited universities in the US and elsewhere in the world, but they also have a number of schools that operate exclusively as Bible colleges, training people for ministry.

Finally, how the heck do I know all this? I used to be a minister myself.

-David

[repeatedly edited because I just can't leave well enough alone...]

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: David Bowden / wide-eyed wanderer ]</p>

HelenM

I know that members of my church who have completed the education deemed appropriate, can be ordained by my church - it's like a viva - they have 2 hours of oral questioning.

If they pass, they're ordained.

And it's probably like schools - in that, if you have a qualification from a given school, people who respect your school will respect your qualification - and it's probably similar that churches which respect my church will be happy to consider a candidate ordained at my church to be qualified for their position. A given non-denominational church would presumably know what they'd accept in terms of where a pastor was educated, interned and ordained...

Within the denominations you probably have to satisfy some denomination-specific criteria; maybe including education at their own schools in some cases.

And yes, there are non-denominational Bible colleges; but I think a person trained in a denominational one could probably switch to a non-denominational career by satisfying a given church's criteria.

David, you're right that Moody is non-denominational.

That was a good point about non-denominational churches being able to be more responsive to cultural changes or what appeals to people - they don't have to have the permission of their denomination. Sometimes churches opt out of a denomination because they want to do something their denomination won't allow. I just found out that a local Lutheran church is 'independent' now - they left the Missouri Synod because of things that they didn't agree with which happened in the last few decades.

Now, I don't know whether they'd call themselves 'non-denominational' or not because they have Lutheran in the name...I think they call themselves "Independent Lutheran". I daresay they're a lot more like Lutherans than they're like most non-denominational churches which tend to be non-liturgical.

Helen

HelenM

Unless you were talking only about Rhema and Vineyard, which I know little about, this isn't necessarily true.

My church and my last one exist based on ongoing contributions from the people who go. If more money comes in than they need in a year I think they put it into a fund toward the cost of whatever we are going to do to solve the overcrowding at my church. Which could cost a lot more money than is in that fund anyway.

We don't have any 'profit making' enterprises

Helen

David Bowden

I apologize, Helen; I was referring to Rhema in particular, and I'm aware of Vineyard's commercial successes, and was generalizing about the more "franchise"-ish non-denominational churches. I didn't mean to include all non-denoms in that characterization. I should have made a clearer distinction.

I know of many non-denominational churches who preach against that sort of thing and some which struggle just to keep the lights on, and some where the pastors work a "day job" in order to provide for their families. It's the "thank you, drive through, take home a $25 sweatshirt?" churches that I was picking on.

-David

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: David Bowden / wide-eyed wanderer ]</p>

Corwin

Sak, the congregationalists are a very leftist christian sect. (Somewhat more conservative than the unitarians, but not much.) They bear some resemblance to the friends, (quakers) in that they generally don't have set 'churches' in the way other sects do, but instead have reasonably informal meeting halls. As I understand it they're the sect that founded Harvard.

If you're a christian, very liberal, and not quite willing to state that Jesus was a very nice person but not the son of God, then go with congregationalists. (If you're willing to state that, go unitarian. )

galiel

None.

They are still churches, they are still based upon the belief in a supernatural being that responds to prayer and favors those who publicly at least appear to fawn on it/him/her/ztyqn (that last if you are from Neptune), and they still thrive through manipulation of the most base of human impulses, the desire to make fun of women's hats.

sakrilege

</strong>

I'm used to the catholic model which has a lengthy education & an elaborate ceremony in becoming a priest.

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Another point I never knew about.


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Helen's church sounds like the latter.


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</strong>

How would a non-denom become denominational?


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Are there disagreements between any of these or do they pretty much teach the same thing?

... and I found it very informative as well as fun. Thanks <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />