JusticeMachine

So to rephrase (to make sure I understand your point):

Either Good and Evil are independent of GOD, and GOD is subject to their interpretations or GOD is the source by with good and evil are defined.

I believe the bible deals with that very question. To paraphrase there is no sin with out the law. The law is GOD.

ManM

Jamie_L,
Yes, I would say that God has the ability to do evil. Given my definition of evil, this basically means that the persons of the trinity have the freedom to relate to each other in whatever way they choose.

Philosoft

Pretty much.

<strong> The implication of which is that "the law" is arbitrary. "The law" could have specified that stealing is preferred, but we are fortunate enough that it does not.

Now, I fully expect to be countered with a version of the "God's nature" defense. I feel another tautology coming on.

JusticeMachine

You will run in to that problem each time the subject if approach, because if you believe the bible, and what it say to be true, then there is now need to even ask the question. If you are asking to question to find fault in the bible, or to sow seeds of mistrust in it's believers then the question exposes you for who you are. Either what is written in the bible is true or it's not. And you either believe it or you don't.
Are you trying to find reason to believe and this paticular line of questioning is a stumbling block for you or are you trying to sway people who believe away from GOD?

We can sit here at speculate the "what ifs" until dooms day, but I feel life is to be lived in application, not speculation.

Philosoft

I, like most people, atheist and theist alike, believe some things in the Bible are true. Biblical geography is the easy part. I'm sure there are other true things in the Bible that are not so easy to discover. Problem is, I have no way of knowing what those things are. Why would I uncritically accept an unavoidably flawed book's characterization of an invisible, incomprehensible being? Why would you?

<strong> Oh? And what is that? Remember, this is a board run by atheists for atheists.

<strong> You know it doesn't work this way. Everyone, everyone picks and chooses which parts of the bible are a)literally true; b)figurative, but true in principle; c)not true.

<strong> Stumbling block? I'm walking just fine, thank you.

<strong> Or, you can address my argument, as is apropos of many message boards, which summarizes thus: are the actions that God condemns objectively bad, independent of God's decree, or are the actions bad because they violate God's arbitrary moral code?

Jamie_L

Interesting. I'm not sure I have a response to that in the context of this thread. Nevertheless, interesting. Thanks.

Jamie

JusticeMachine

You mean are the actions of the God condemns (the God you don't believe in) objectively bad, independent of God's decree...ect.

Well I don't see your motivation in asking the question?

If I don't believe in God, why inquire about him, I have already made up my mind that he doesn't exist. I contend that by making the inquiry you doubt your resolve.

And I am more that aware of what web site I am on, but why would I go to a web site where everyone agreed with me. Where is the fun in that?

Synaesthesia

Re: God should want sin:

Well yea. Since God can instantate any possible state of affiars, and there is sin and God wants what is best:

All is for the best in this, the best of all possible worlds.

Kind of abhorrent, isn't it? There is not a tiny detail of this world that could be improved. To the Xtian's God, THIS is pefection.

Mageth

If I don't believe in God, why inquire about him, I have already made up my mind that he doesn't exist. I contend that by making the inquiry you doubt your resolve.

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

I'm banging my head because so many theists come to this board and post something ridiculous along this line.

Just because one is an atheist doesn't mean that one should not be interested in discussing various god beliefs.

We live in a world (and particularly country) where a majority of the population hold beliefs which we, more or less, consider irrational. Some of us like to discuss these beliefs to try to learn/better understand what all those people are getting on about. And also, occasionally, to hopefully reveal the irrationality of those beliefs to those holding them.

Note that we also discuss parapsychology, UFOs, cryptozoology, and various other subjects in which we may or may not believe. I'll bet you a nickel you do too.

Note that, as an atheist, I have no "resolve" to not believe in god; I simply lack belief in god(s).

JusticeMachine

Okay, let us start from a different premise. (probably won't conform with this string, but oh well)

For you to believe (I isolate you, because you are a very good example of an anti-theist) in anything, does it have to pass all of your logical lines of questioning? Are there somethings in life that just have to be accepted?
You would probably say "yes, but not GOD". I think that is because, you can't put GOD in a test tube for you to examine and pick apart and manipulate into a tool to serve your own needs/desires.

And you will not follow what you don't believe in and you won't believe things that aren't true/factual. Worse, is you probably believe there is no such thing as truth/fact (objective), so you have no firmly held beliefs at all, less one, and that would be the firmly held beliefs that there is nothing that is true.

I wonder what the lineage of atheism is? It often times seem atheism is the lamprey or leach of theism, for it has no ability to sustain itself on its own. It is the scavenger, the vulture of the religious world, waiting for the week (in faith) to fall behind the pack and then it strikes. It's ironic that religion can exist contently with out the atheist, but is the contrary true. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />