Talulah

How could one not fear that God if one believed in him?

Do you think fear is a good thing?

Gemma Therese

Without a doubt. By fear, I mean a healthy respect for God's majesty and awe -- certainly a virtue lost from popular thinking.

Gemma Therese

The Lone Ranger

But what does "infinite goodness" mean? Is it good to torture people for all eternity for any crime whatsoever? It is logically impossible for a finite being to commit any crime whatsoever that could justify infinite punishment.

How could an "infinitely good" being allow suffering to occur when he had it in his power to simply snap his fingers and make everything perfect? Oh yes, "free will."

If I say to you: "Do exactly as I say, or I'll tortue you forever," whatever else may be true, I'm not giving you freedom of choice. Any being who would demand such a "choice" is a monster deserving only of contempt.

In any event, if "free will" is so important, then if I see a child about to wander out into traffic, I should refuse to take any action to prevent him from doing so, right? After all, I don't want to interfere with his "free will," do I?

If "goodness" is defined simply as "what God says/does" then "goodness" has no meaning at all. If that is the definition of "goodness," then anything that God does is "good" by definition, no matter how much unnecessary pain, suffering, and injustice it might cause.

After all, if that's how "goodness" is defined, one could even "justify" something are clearly evil as ruthlessly drowning innocent children and uncountable numbers of innocent animals.

Wait a minute . . .

Starboy

ManM:

If what you say were true, Christianity would be unnecessary.

Starboy

Jagged

The description my Reformed church used for human beings without God:

Total Depravity

Gotta love that dignity-affirming Christian theology.

I also did time in the funny farm from being fed this bullshit. I think the term "mindfuck" is very appropriate.

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Jagged Little Pill ]</p>

Bree

Sure. Majesty and awe for a guy who says it's okay to sell off your daughters to slavery, rape and pillage (because God's on your side, of course), and kill people because they don't agree with you (or because God's NOT on their side, of course).

Man, you don't read the Old Testament, do you?

Godless Dave

I'm not afraid of the people who love me or who I love. I'm not sure I would call that a virtue. But anyway it's the belief that a god exists that's lost from my thinking, not respect and awe for a god.

I do feel respect, awe, and a little fear in regards to nature. If God is a metaphor for the natural world and all the many circumstances beyond human control than I think respect and awe are perfectly appropriate. When I go wilderness camping I am in awe at the beauty of nature, but also respect it - as part of nature I have to find food, water, and shelter for myself, and nothing reminds me of that better than being in a forest or on a lake with no electricity, heat, or plumbing. I have to take precautions to protect my food (and myself!) from bears. When in a canoe I have to be aware of the weather. You could say I love nature, but it doesn't love me, in fact it's completely indifferent to my existence, thus the respect and fear. But it's not a conscious being with whom I have a relationship. It's a larger thing of which I am a tiny part.

I'm not just talking about the pretty lakes and mountains either, but about all the things that can kill or hurt you - disease, accidents, natural disasters - that happen without malice and for which no one is to blame.

Wyz_sub10

That's the paradox - "god created each and every one of us, so we are special" and "we can do nothing without him, everthing good comes from him, we are all sinners who deserve death if not for god's grace."

I heard both of these views throughout 25 years of christianity. They were always presented as compatible and without contradiction. I cannot see that (you can find fault with my semantics or find holes in the *particular* words I have chosen here, but the overall point remains the same - Christianity teaches that you are worthy and not worthy at the same time).

Wyz_sub10

I'm sure many Chinese felt the same about Mao Tse Tsung.

"Power is in the muzzle of a gun."

Christinanity is about following the rules "or else". There is absolutely no motivation without fear.

Christianity doesn't say "be righteous, because it'll be better for everyone involved." It says "follow me or burn forever."

Bible Humper

The Christians need to develop a stock defense to these repeated attacks on the OT Yahweh's moral fibre.

I suggest "The Lord loves in mysterious ways", it immediately puts the deity's behavior above scrutiny because "if only we were omnibenevolent we too would understand how this is in fact a wonderous expression of love!"

When atheists ask about the OT Yahweh, you'll be able to ask "Are you omniscient? You can't say that drowning the world and ordering mass rapes and genocide weren't nice things to do unless you are!!!"

In fact, it can perform a function very similar to it's apologetic cousin "The Lord works in mysterious ways" which is used to explain why the deity uses his omnipotence in such a way that it is indistinguishable from no intervention at all. Thus, you won't even have to master arguments you've never seen before.

You're welcome.

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper ]</p>