Vorkosigan

To me, your statement doesn't sound like you believe that Lewis isn't really devoted. Rather, it sounds to me like you are just trying to sound like you believe that he wasn't really devoted, and working hard to believe this is the case. You must realize that Lewis is speaking the truth.

You asked, I answered. There are many reasons to like Screwtape.

Why don't you read the book and find out, Ms Cleo.

What the hell is this crap? As a matter of fact, I used to own a copy. Lewis racism and colonialism are obvious from a number of things he says (HINT: the Calormen -- "colored men" worship a god who is really Satan, and whose name is an example of toilet humor), and it is also clear that he does not want to understand atheism.

I guess you realize the pompous, condescending tone was intentional, Lewis mentioned this in the introduction and in later discussions about the book. It was his purpose to create an "buerocratic" hell full of self-important demons.

No, the pompous, condescending tone is a staple of his apologetic writings.

Could you expound upon how Lewis's rendering of of the Christian view of the world was "inhuman"?

In a moment....but you might start by pondering what it means when the demons note that they should focus the man on the things of the world, because the world is evil....

This seems contradictory to me.

No contradiction between strong characters and bad psychology -- see the writings of Ayn Rand, for example.

For what it's worth, I find this website ocasionally amusing because of it's hilariously bad view of human sociality and human psychology. So who am I to judge?

You asked for opinions, I gave. <shrug>

Vorkosigan

atheist_in_foxhole

<a href="http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/assertions.html" target="_blank">Mere Assertions</a>

B. H. Manners

I am going to transfer this thread. It seems to focus a lot more on Lewis himself than his particulat arguments.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

luvluv

lpetrich:

Have you read Suprised by Joy, The Pilgrim's Regress, or the Letters of C.S. Lewis? How about God in the Dock? Did you know there are several books of C.S. letters that were compiled BEFORE he was a Christian at all? He told us lots about his atheist phase. He can't write it and read it for you too.

Vorkosagian:

You used to own a copy of the World's Last Night? Because that is the book I was referring to when you said Lewis didn't understand how un-believers think. If you've read it then we can discuss the two essays he wrote in that book on this topic.

No disrespect, because I like you, but you don't think this applies to a lot of your posts around here? It's a matter of opinion, anyway.

And are you further saying that C.S. Lewis was lying when he explicitly stated, in his introduction, that it was his goal to make Screwtape as self-concerned and conceited of a windbag as he could to emphasize his point?

I don't remember anyone in the book stating explicitly that it was evil, but I would like for you to remember that in Christian theology "the world" applies to all temporal and transitory issues (your job status, your income level, whether you have a nicer car than your neighbor) while heavenly or eternal concerns deal with your fellow man and matters of everlasting importance (feeding and housing the poor, visiting the sick and imprisoned, see Matthew 25). As such, I don't see the problem with that.

You should know that when Christians say "the world" they don't literally mean planet earth, or even our live's on this earth, but concern with "worldy" matters like material possessions and personal status.

lpetrich

Luvluv ought to tell that to the hermits and ascetics of the earlier centuries of the Xian Church, who would often starve themselves and live in deserts. They often believed that cleanliness was next to ungodliness, that it was a very worldly sort of thing; they sometimes called lice "pearls of God"(!)

Living Dead Chipmunk

"You too" fallacy. Has absolutely no bearing on the content of the assertion made by your opponent.

Vorkosigan

You used to own a copy of the World's Last Night? Because that is the book I was referring to when you said Lewis didn't understand how un-believers think. If you've read it then we can discuss the two essays he wrote in that book on this topic.

Nope, never read it. I was referring to Screwtape.

No disrespect, because I like you, but you don't think this applies to a lot of your posts around here? It's a matter of opinion, anyway.

I am hardly the only person on earth to notice this. Much unintentional humor in Screwtape derives from the fact that the demons imitate Lewis' tone when he is writing apologetics.

And are you further saying that C.S. Lewis was lying when he explicitly stated, in his introduction, that it was his goal to make Screwtape as self-concerned and conceited of a windbag as he could to emphasize his point?

No, I stated that I believe he was implicitly lying when he wrote bad apologetics and probably knew it.

I don't remember anyone in the book stating explicitly that it was evil, but I would like for you to remember that in Christian theology "the world" applies to all temporal and transitory issues (your job status, your income level, whether you have a nicer car than your neighbor) while heavenly or eternal concerns deal with your fellow man and matters of everlasting importance (feeding and housing the poor, visiting the sick and imprisoned, see Matthew 25). As such, I don't see the problem with that.

I do. The dichotomy between the divine and the human is one of the most inhuman parts of Christian philosophy. Just look at chapter 1 of Screwtape, where the demon wins by:

"I showed him a newsboy shouting the midday paper, and a No. 73 bus going past, and before he reached the bottom of the steps I had got into him an unalterable conviction that, whatever odd ideas might come into a man's head when he was shut up alone with his books, a healthy dose of "real life" (by which he meant the bus and the newsboy) was enough to show him that all "that sort of thing" just couldn't be true."

The demon is quite right. There is no reality beyond our current one, that is muddled up, inhuman metaphysics. Previously in the passage he had hacked on science (especially economics and sociology), since science, of course, is the ultimate engagement with the world. Note that he had selected the two sciences that focus on the human as examples of evil science.

Chapter 1 is online <a href="http://www.bible-reading.com/screwtape.html" target="_blank">Here</a>

But as Lewis said in the World's Last Night, Christ died for men, because men aren't worth dying for. That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

lpetrich

Also, luvluv ignores the parts where Jesus Christ commands desertion of one's biological/marital family. And how he had practiced what he preached there.

Tercel

Try not to believe everything you read... especially reviews by Athiests of Christian apologetics books!

ashibaka

That's what the demons want you to think!