luvluv

Lauri:

Well,

a) an answered prayer is generally good news, so in those cases we aren't using somebody's dead daughter as a rhetorical tool for making a point gratifying to us personally.

b) I would be happy to talk of answered prayer in the abstract but I have a sneaking suspicion you guys would ask for proof.

Biff the unclean:

No. Prayer is asking for God's personal involvement, for His direct activity, in our lives. It's not about preventing bad things from happening, it's about whether or not God will PERSONALLY and with His own direct action, miraculously DO ME SPIRITUAL HARM if I ask Him too. I think it's reasonable to assume He wouldn't.

God could leave us freely to our own mistakes, and as a consequence of living in a world with other free beings, we are subject to their mistakes as well. But that's a far different thing than asking God Himself to do for us something that He knows will be ultimately harmful.

Well, again it's not about being misguided it's about whether or not God will actively participate in aiding and abetting you in your misguidedness. (is that a word?) He will not HELP you to be harmed by actually personally granting a misguided wish. Nor, in my view, will he actually condemn a person for a truly (accidentally) misguided belief. But if you know better, if you are a mature enough Christian (or believer of some other sort) such that you know that God knows better than you what is ultimately for good, then I would say the fact that you or a loved one suffered is not sufficient grounds for positing God's nonexistence. No where in the Bible or in Christendom is anyone promised that they will not suffer, in fact they are promised the opposite. Suffering is a part of life, and it is not the avoidance of it but what you make of it that ultimately matters.

Philosoft

*sigh*
This is absolutely a non-starter - from our perspective, an all-good universe, whatever else that entails, would necessarily include inhabitants that are intrinsically satisfied with their environments. It wouldn't involve transplanting beings from this universe as your objection assumes.
I'll second Biff's (third) request. Making that what, a fifth, sixth? Anyway, the human brain is such an efficient pattern-generating machine, you should be able to demonstrate this pattern quite easily.

Biff the unclean

When you read a book like The Road Less Traveled which deals almost exclusively with such matters, and find Christ at the end of the road, you will know what I mean.
Read it years ago. Pure drivel.


When you try every self-help philosophy and religion, and find none which can let you be completely honest with yourself and still find complete forgiveness and freedom from guilt, you will know what I mean.
You are right, religion isn't going to help you. Because it doesn't give you forgiveness and freedom from guilt. IT MAKES YOU THINK YOU ARE GUILTY AND YOU NEED FORGIVENESS.
That is one of the truly liberating things about Atheism. You realize that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with you just because you are a human being.

But skeptics by and large won't even read books which shine much of a light into their hearts.
Who the hell even talks like that, "shine a light into their hearts"?

In fact a few have denounced such works out of hand, while preaching integrity and personal responsibility as if these may be gained at age 25 from thin air.
They are usually gained a lot younger than 25.
If the blurbs that the Xians have posted in this thread are any indication then n integrity and personal responsibility from Christianity.

do decide which view holds more personal integrity and dignity and leads to true self-realization.
You've already made the lack of integrity and the loss of dignity inherent in Christianity painfully clear. And for a member of "the flock" to even use the term "true self-realization" is ridiculous.

But the approach here is so often to just pretend they don't exist or that we are above all that and unlike any generation before us, can save the world by preaching the power of faith in self.
Which ignores the fact that only with the collapse of religion has human worth, human rights, ever had a chance in this world. You ignore that there was a time when religion reigned supreme, when every knee was bent to Christ when every tongue called his name. When everyone prayed. That time was "The Dark Ages"--the worst time in European history.

MrDarwin

I sure would choose to live in this world, because to be honest I've had a pretty dandy life. Whatever misfortune might yet befall me won't erase the fact that I've had 41 pretty darn good years. How does this make my questioning of the Christian concept of God "specious"? I might answer much differently if I were one of those unfortunate children born with a horrible birth defect, or a child in a third world country who contracts a horrible disease, either way doomed to die young after a life of pain and suffering. I might even answer differently if I were to give birth to such a child.

But I'm afraid I just don't follow the "free will" line of reasoning. We humans have decided that to maximize good for all of society, we should catch and punish those individuals who commit murder. Most people have no problem with this infringement on our free will. Yet even with the numerous examples of people who are caught and punished for murder every year, people still kill other people. The threat of punishment does not curtail the free will of those determined to exercise it. But if I had a law enforcement agency that was inept, and never caught any murderers, you can bet your life I'd be complaining about it.

Now, would I choose to live in a world where I was prevented from murdering another person? Darn right I would. Why should I be permitted, for my own sake and for the sake of the other person, to carry out such an act? How could the world be a better place by allowing me to murder somebody?

Ronin

You do not rely on yourself, Radorth, and you readily admit this.

A wonderful book, yet, not an explanation of how the Christ of the fable is good, perfect and loving.

The Holy Bible is a failing document despite many assorted attempts at apologetics.

This is an emotional, yet, faulty assertion...and not worthy of you, Radorth.

Many of the skeptics you have encountered here have come from christian households, myself included, and have really put forth enormous amounts of effort to reconcile the beauty of natural reality in plain view with the supernatural tales and other authoritative writs.

We find them sorely lacking and have decided to fill our hearts with the light of reason.

I see no contradiction, Radorth.

He has just used your claim that your particular deity, despite extreme descriptions otherwise, is always just. Even to allow tragic suffering to exist despite your claim of his omnipotence.

Again, God does not exist because of the good, evil and utter ambiguities we observe directly.

As simple humans, we have personal accountability Radorth.

However, your claim that an all-powerful and all-loving deity exists, would place the whole ball of wax on that being.

The freewill excuse is not a sufficient defense for what I see and I take it upon myself to try to bring some protection and good to humanity precisely because deities are is fiction.

God is not there at all.

All the information that you have on your particular deity is told in fables. Relying on imaginary servitude to a sky king is not accentuating personal self-reliance and acceptance of reality.

That it may help you to succomb to this mindnumbing belief is fine and good.

I will refute it whenever I encounter it portrayed as fact or reality, which is also fine and good.

Reality exists, Rad, and there have been many atheists, humanists and freethinkers in bygone generations who have refuted...as do I...the frantic preaching of whatever hokey faith of fables that comes along.

It is a simple as that.

~ Ronin

MrDarwin

Um... but isn't that the ultimate goal? Are you saying there will be a lot of whiners in Heaven?

Biff the unclean

luvluv: No. Prayer is asking for God's personal involvement, for His direct activity, in our lives. It's not about preventing bad things from happening…
But you indicate that God won't do you spiritual harm…whatever that means. Yet the majority of we Atheists prayed to God to help us believe in him. Since we are now Atheists you probably know the response we received. Now you say we are damned, which would indicate that God has no problem with letting us come to spiritual harm through his response (or lack thereof) to prayers.

… with His own direct action, miraculously DO ME SPIRITUAL HARM if I ask Him too. I think it's reasonable to assume He wouldn't.
Since he holds us responsible for "sins of omission" then he must consider action where action is possible an individual's responsibility. So it is not reasonable to think that that his own inaction indicates culpability any different than ours.

But that's a far different thing than asking God Himself to do for us something that He knows will be ultimately harmful.
Again you ignore the little girl in the OP and what she stands for.


it's about whether or not God will actively participate in aiding and abetting you in your misguidedness. (is that a word?) He will not HELP you to be harmed by actually personally granting a misguided wish.
But he will let you be damned by not granting a non-misguided wish of "help me to believe in you."

But if you know better, if you are a mature enough Christian (or believer of some other sort) such that you know that God knows better than you what is ultimately for good, then I would say the fact that you or a loved one suffered is not sufficient grounds for positing God's nonexistence.
I see nothing "mature" about your attitude of acceptance. In fact "infantile" is the word that comes to mind when a person clings to a fairy tale in the face of harsh reality.

No where in the Bible or in Christendom is anyone promised that they will not suffer, in fact they are promised the opposite. Suffering is a part of life, and it is not the avoidance of it but what you make of it that ultimately matters.
Which reduces your God to impotency or establishes him as being a monster.

Goliath

luvluv,

Who the hell said anything about the argument from evil!? I asked you to prove your assertion that this world has the most good of any possible world.

Stop trying to shift the burden of proof!

Sincerely,

Goliath

Gemma Therese

God cares about everything, including suffering. We created the situation of pain and suffering. God is letting us live in the world we created as a vehicle back to Him.

Gemma Therese

Biff the unclean

We.....WE!!!....waddaya mean we? I did no such thing.