Magus55

You are judged at the Great Throne Judgement by the works you did on Earth - and they affect rewards (Crowns) received in Heaven. But that only applies if you've accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior. If you rejected him, your works are judged and you are sentenced to your punishment.

Works are only based on judgement. Faith in Jesus is the only way to be saved. Basically, Jesus is your ticket to get your "foot in the door", and your works on Earth determine your rewards in Heaven. So for example if a murderer gets saved by Christ, as well as a minister who gave to charity monthly and worked at homeless shelters - the murderer is still saved and goes to Heaven - but will be penalized based on his poor choices on Earth, while the minister will be rewarded for his good works.

Javaman

Ah, Magus55, I see your reasoning... but I was asking EstherRose for hers.

EstherRose

Matthew 16
27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

This verse does not say he will judge everyone according to what he has done. It says he will reward, therefore it follows that the person being rewarded already has salvation through belief in Jesus Christ. The rewards for what each has done are additional bonuses.

I hope this answers your question. Actually Magus summed it up quite well, but since you specifically asked me for my opinion, I gave it as well.

I used the NIV for the bible quote (personal preference, not because it is any better).

RED DAVE

You haven't answered my question.

RED DAVE

EstherRose

My apologies. Somehow I missed seeing it.

You asked:
Question, do nonconverted Jews (and others) go to hell. I mean those who are extremely knowledgeable about Jesus and reject him unequivocally?

The bible tells us that those who do not believe in Jesus as the Son of God and accept Him into their lives will go to hell.

John 14
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 4
12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Luke 16
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

RED DAVE

From EstherRose:

So, my greatgrandmother, who died in the Holocaust an observant Jew, went to hell, according to your hateful religion. And you wonder why Jews and others don't convert?

I'm waiting for the standard response: how hell proves how much god loves us.

RED DAVE

Calzaer

Rose: What version are you using? Your Peter 1:17 and my Peter 1:17 say and mean completely different things. Is that the NIV? Don't get me started on the translational problems in the NIV...

In regard to Matthew 5:17, where does it say in the old testament that the laws could/would EVER be "fulfilled"? The language used througout the OT is "forever", and never once mentions any sort of "fulfillment". Combine that with Jesus not fulfilling all/any of the OT prophecies about a messiah, and.. well, gee, the Jews don't believe him. Wonder why? All the other verses you quoted in that post were from Paul, who I address in another thread. It's strange that Paul is the only one harping on the "No need to be good" path to heaven when everyone else implies that you actually have to do something.

Now, some specifics:
Ok... where does it say that? Or, maybe I should ask first: Are you a Protestant or a Catholic? Catholics can point to church tradition for that, but Protestants are allegedly followers of the sola scriptura school of thought.

That doesn't sound right. Jews were, for centuries until this point, following the Mosaic law fully. If they didn't they were stoned to death by the rest of the community. God obviously expected the Jews to follow Mosaic law fully; he smote people who used the wrong incence.

But he never said that. Only Paul said that. This is related to what would happen to me if I explicitly followed all of Jesus's directions for getting into heaven; I'd go to hell. Jesus was asked how to pray. If I prayed like that, according to the Paulians, I'd still go to hell because that prayer doesn't say anything about accepting Jesus as the Lord and Savior. At no point did Jesus ever say anything about accepting him as the Lord and Savior, or as one's personal Lord and Savior, or accepting his gift of dying for sins. If I only listened to Jesus, and not Paul too, I'd go to hell. It seems rather incredible that Jesus would omit the most important requirement for getting into heaven, and have to give it to Paul to add on as a post script about a century later. Did all the people who followed Jesus in the century between his death and Paul's writings go to hell? We have no reason to believe they accepted Christ the way Paul demands, if they were following Christ's directions.

That sounds reasonable enough. But isn't stating your acceptance for Christ a deed in and of itself?

But you're saying that when you accept Christ, Christ makes you do deeds, and if you don't do deeds, than you haven't really accepted Christ. Using deeds as a litmus test for saved-ness rather than a prerequisite is still requiring that deeds be done.

I already asked about 1 Peter 1:17. And you're absolutely correct on the Romans and Corinthians quotes; I mis-read their meanings. I apologize for making you do my homework for me on those.


***


Magus: That's nice. So if I accept Jesus, but continue to practice witchcraft, I get to go to heaven, I just don't get a nifty crown. I go to the "only kinda perfect" heaven.

Magus55

Actually, more and more Jews are becoming Messianic - i became one.

The error in your view is, you are only looking at God as a loving being. You expect Him to do nothing but let everything on Earth slide, and just ignore sin. Yes God is loving - a greater love than any on Earth could ever hope to amount to. But God is also righteous and holy - He must punish sinners for their crimes against Him. If He didn't , He wouldn't be righteous. God does not want to send anyone to Hell - but they choose to be judged by rejecting His "pardon". It isn't God's fault if you don't want to accept His offer to escape righteous judgement.

Magus55

Nope, wrong:


Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


We are known by our fruits (works).

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:

By receiving Christ, we turn away from our sin and follow Jesus. He who purposely produces bad fruit, isn't walking with the Lord.
Will you still sin? Yes, we aren't perfect - but we repent of our sins and try to do better next time.

Calzaer

Magus: So I *am* required to do works to be saved. Thanks for proving my point for me. Someone has to both be saved *and* prove it by doing deeds.