Autonemesis

No, I am saying that the Big Bang had no cause because there was no event prior to its coming into existence. Furthermore there was no "prior", so the "answer" to the nonsensical question cannot avoid being just as nonsensical as the question itself.

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]</p>

MarcoPolo

Originally posted by Kosh:
Well, let's disect it.

Yes, let's.

It is well established that the predominant lifestyle in ancient israel was pastoral. They herded, among other things, goats.

"GOAT HERDERS" - check

So, since goats were only one of the things they herded, generalizing the entire religion as being created by a 'small tribe of goat herders' is something your would consider factual?

"BRONZE AGE" - check

Agreed.

IGNORANT - check

Using a modern dictionary to define what's considered ignorant during the Bronze Age is a bit of a stretch. They weren't rocket scientists, but they must have known enough to keep their civilization going. But by the definition you used, we're all 'ignorant' of something.

put them all together and what do you have?

"IGNORANT BRONZE AGE GOAT HERDERS".

Any more questions?

No. But your 'fact' was made up of a couple of over-generalizations. Rather un-factual if you ask any non-ignorant person.

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: MarcoPolo ]</p>

RJS

Does this sit well with you? I would think people (even smart scientific types) would try to figure out what caused it.

Let me try this comment then.

Theists take a leap of faith believing that God created everything where atheists take a leap of faith believing the Big Bang had no cause, since no events preceded it.

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

Bree

Usually I'd be more polite than this but I'm really tired.

Please cut out the ad homs.

Autonemesis

Truth is not like a comfy chair.

They did, and finally figured out that this was - pardon the oversimplification - a dumb question.

Nope, not even close. It's a difficult topic, but there is a very good reason why the universe cannot have a cause. It has to do with quantum uncertainty and the smallest divisions of space and time. Heisenberg, Planck, et. al. have shown conclusively, with theoretical as well as experimental rigor, that we cannot measure anything smaller than the Planck length. Given the speed of light, it follows that we cannot measure any time interval smaller than that which it takes a photon of light to cross the Planck length. This turns out to be 10 to the -43 second. Think of this as a quantum of time, if you will. What "happened" between 0 second and 10 to the -43 second is not part of the universe of space and time, because it cannot have "happened" in the sense we mean when we talk about events on timescales larger than 10 to the -43 second.

So you really have to "unask" the question, not because it is unanswerable in principle or in practice, but because it does not make any sense. Our notions of cause and effect are derived from experience with events that occur on timescales MUCH LARGER than Planck time. These concepts do not apply to "events" on timescales smaller than Planck time. There are no "events" that "occur" at scales smaller than Planck time.

I regret that I don't have an adequate analogy to try and convey this idea to you, but that is entirely the point: if an adequate analogy were available, quantum mechanics would be unnecessary. We simply have no analog in Newtonian or Einsteinian experience, or common everyday experience to account for what "happens" on quantum scales. That is why quantum mechanics was invented.

Infinity Lover

It does?

First of all, there's a logical explaination for everything. Even for why we don't have a logical explainantion for everything yet. There's an infinite amount of things to find logical explainations for, so that job will never ever be done.
Living with that knowledge isn't all that different from 'embracing a miracle'. If you'd claim to be able to cope with the one, but not the other that would border on hypocricy.


Let's say a pen an paper materialized in fron of your nose...

you could get all worked up about where it came from, but what good would that do? (I think history shows plenty of examples of that)

Or you can use it to write a poem for your lover, or an inspiring story for your friends, make a nice drawing, or document profound thoughts for future generations to learn from, do some origamy, whatever...

...science will keep on finding more and more answers.

Meanwhile...

...don't try to understand everything, just understand what everything implies (what we know, and might find out in the future) and make the best of that.

Just look at how you're wasting your time on this board right now man.

Are you enjoying yourself?

Are you achieving anything memorable, or usefull?

Do you hear any fullfilling amens?

If you're gonna be a Christian, at least try to be a fruitfull happy Christian.

Okay?

Marcel.

RJS

Thank you Kind Bud - that was helpful

RJS

Enjoying - No
Memorable or Useful - from some of you yes, from others no
Amens - None audible

Thanks for the advice - I am a happy and fruitful Christian. You should appreciate that I come seeking information, not to preach or "save you". At the essence of my questions is an attempt to figure out what atheist have to "put their faith in" since all is not known. I then attempt to compare that to what I know many believers put their faith in.

The mild argument with one of you was unfortunate, but not totally uncalled for.

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

Autonemesis

You don't seem to have thought it would have been fruitful to just come out and ask that question. Instead, you posted a link without comment. Why did you do that?

RJS

I posted the link shortly after I read it to get some responses, then I started to ask questions that I previously had not anticipated. This is a thread, things happen.