Buffman

Sabine G.

My response was to point to the dangers of prejudicial thinking.

Isn't believing that humans are born in sin a prejudicial kind of thinking?

Radorth

You're welcome. It's healthy to laugh at oneself, I always say.

Rad

Sabine Grant

Good point Buffman... I never thought of it that way... one nuance though... I would include myself in the lot of "sinners". The prejudiced individual only points a finger to others, vary rarely to himself. He defines a group he does not belong to for he is way above " that kind of people". But despite of that nuance I can see how attributing negativity to an entire group can be reflected thru the concept of humanity being born in sin.

Buffman

Sabine

Thank you for the integrity. However, considering your nuance, perhaps you should view it from the position of those who do not believe as you do. Are you not including them in your group of "sinners," as well as yourself? Aren't you actually including anyone that does not believe as you do to be "that kind of person?"


Rad

My heart be still! That was truly a funny funny! Good for you! Maybe something positve is rubbing off on you. Keep this up and I may actually begin to believe in miracles. Naaaaah! I'm happy this way.

Radorth

Well Buff, if we simply define "sinners" as people who "miss the mark" and we accept that there is always a higher plane we could live on, then I cannot understand why anyone would object, in that sense. I know the word is kind of inflammatory and produces negative images in our minds, so how about we call ourselves "mark missers." Is that helpful?

What distinguishes Christianity from virtually all other religions and philosophies is this idea that one can be a "bad" person and have many faults and still be saved. I ask,who but the Christian can be free of self righteousness? The very process of improving oneself by force of will is an invitation to become self-righteous. Who but the Christian can admit s/he is a "mark misser" again and again and be confident that tomorrow is still a new day? Who but the Christian can say "But for the grace of God, there go I" and who can, in theory at least, be the more tolerant? Who can be the less hypocritical, than s/he who is free to admit faults knowing God is empowered to save us all in spite of ourselves.

I do realize there are lot's of holier than thou Christians and intolerant religious folks out there, but ironically, they believe they can save themselves and the world through good works, much as unbelievers do. Also neither of them has any humble idea why God might need to impute anything to them. They're holy enough already, right?

That's why when atheists talk about how free, independent and unhypocritical they are compared to the lowly Christians, I don't buy it for a minute. It's bull. On average, they're just as needy, vulnerable and weak as the rest of us "mark missers."

Take a Zen course. You'll get it eventually.

Rad

beyelzu

I ask who but christians can be so totally self righteous, filled with the fiery certainty that no matter how often they fuck up they get to go to heaven.

and no matter how well an atheist lives his life, he will burn in hell.

atheists are of course stronger than christians, as they do not need a crutch to lean on.

Buffman

Rad

Well Buff, if we simply define "sinners" as people who "miss the mark" and we accept that there is always a higher plane we could live on, then I cannot understand why anyone would object, in that sense.

I certainly don't view folks as "sinners" or as those who have missed the mark without having some idea of what is/is not a sin or a mark. However, I most certainly admire those who attempt to always lead positive and productive lives. What becomes most confusing is when the Judeo-Christian Bible lists 613 Commandments that Jews must obey to reach your so-called "higher plain," but only 10 for a Christian to reach the same arbitrary level. It would seem that Christians must be "missing the mark" at an extraordinary rate if they don't even know about the additional 603 Commandments given by the supernatural God of the Old Testament...the same OT that contains the 10 Commandments in use by the Christians.

http://dunamai.com/articles/general/...mmandments.htm

The point here is that you seem to believe that there are a set of ordained standards which every human, under every condition, must use to govern their words and deeds yet you have elected to ignore at least 603 of those standards. Why is that?



I know the word is kind of inflammatory and produces negative images in our minds, so how about we call ourselves "mark missers." Is that helpful?

The word in not inflammatory for/to me. I simple define the situations it repreprents somewhat differently. That's all! So, thank you for attempting to find words upon which we can agree, but "mark missers" fails to have any meaning unless you provide a list of those marks. As I just pointed out, the Jews have 613 to your ten and from the same inerrant, for some, tome.

What distinguishes Christianity from virtually all other religions and philosophies is this idea that one can be a "bad" person and have many faults and still be saved.

Define "saved." Saved from what? Saved for what? I do understand the appeal of the Christian faith system. I have discussed it with you before. It is the sale and purchase of an Eternal Life Insurance Policy built upon the blind faith belief in miracles and resurrections. That superstitions and myths are called philosophies would seem to denigrate the definition of Philosophy. It certainly denigrates the definitions of logic and reason.

I ask,who but the Christian can be free of self righteousness? The very process of improving oneself by force of will is an invitation to become self-righteous.

You are certainly entitled to believe that if you wish. I don't! Neither does your supernatural God head or It would not have provided you with "free will." Perhaps free will IS an invitation to become self-righteous. However, I know of nothing that demands that outcome. Do you?

Who but the Christian can admit s/he is a "mark misser" again and again and be confident that tomorrow is still a new day?

How convenient! It is a super selling con job. Look Rad! It's not that I fail to understand and appreciate the need that many people have for guidance and answers to help them face the realities of the natural world. It's just that some people don't need crutches to make their way along the path of life. You, and others, do. That's fine. Just don't try to cripple me with your superstitious belief system. It is really quite simple. I won't attempt to take your crutches away just as long as you don't continue to insist that you are better than everyone else because you know how to use them. OK?

Who but the Christian can say "But for the grace of God, there go I" and who can, in theory at least, be the more tolerant? Who can be the less hypocritical, than s/he who is free to admit faults knowing God is empowered to save us all in spite of ourselves.

As I just explained. If you need that crutch, by all means use it. If you are standing in the path of a speeding train, your make believe God isn't going to "save" you...any more than he saved all those innocent people on 9/11. However, if you are able to deal with reality more effectively by believing in that nonsense, who am I, or anyone else for that matter, to attempt to steal your crutch from out underneath your conditioned belief system. I would get no particular pleasure seeing you suffer while looking for the means to stand and walk on your own legs and feet. What I don't appreciate are salespersons attempting to sell me crutches as eternal life insurance policies. I have managed to find my way quite well for nearly seven decades without using them. (Well, I did get my leg fractured in three places playing high school football and I did resort to crutches as a means of physical mobility. Other than straining two toes attempting to negotiate the school stairs, I could barely wait for the day to rid myself of them.)

I do realize there are lot's of holier than thou Christians and intolerant religious folks out there, but ironically, they believe they can save themselves and the world through good works, much as unbelievers do.

I will encourage and support their positive deeds. If you chose not to do so, that again is certainly your right and choice. However, I am less than supportive of those running around praying to a make believe God to solve all the problems we face in the world of today and tomorrow. Personally, I view that as a failure to accept individual responsibility and an indicator of laziness, immaturity or ignorance...or a combination of all three with fear thrown in as a frosting to that poisonous cake.

Also neither of them has any humble idea why God might need to impute anything to them. They're holy enough already, right?

I have no idea if they are holy or not. Define "holy."

That's why when atheists talk about how free, independent and unhypocritical they are compared to the lowly Christians, I don't buy it for a minute. It's bull. On average, they're just as needy, vulnerable and weak as the rest of us "mark missers."

Hmmmmm? I feel sure that you have to believe that in order to help justify your blind faith belief system. (You have certainly stated it often enough.) However, I do agree with you about us all having certain commonalities. That's why we are called humans rather than zebras or trees...though I readily admit that some of us think and act like trees. If it gives you some form of mental comfort to bring everyone down to your level of supernaturalism, that's fine also. However, I more admire those who have been able to move beyond that level of mind numbing conditioning at the altars of religious dogma.


Take a Zen course. You'll get it eventually.

Don't you recall? I lived in the Far East. I am well aware of basic Zen teachings. I had some delightful and informative discussions with Buddhists monks. Have you?

Radorth

The standard was always virtually impossible and the Sermon on the Mount made it completely impossible. Nevertheless the mark and example is Jesus. Why are you speaking legalistically and simply ignoring a hundred scriptures which tell us that the law is useless except as our "schoolmaster"? What does Paul mean that "the strength of the law is sin."? Why do you think God made a "New Covenant" with us. If you understood what the buddhists were telling you, you would understand the paradox.

Yes we do sin at an extraordinary rate. Why do you think God invented imputed righteousness?

I need what I need, and there is what there is available to me. Jesus is a lousy "crutch" anyway. I suggest atheists can find all sorts of crutches and do.

War, hatred. predjudice, self-righteousness, hypocrisy, nuclear holocausts, useless philosophies, the dictates of Lord Self, high blood pressure, being judged by your own rules, finding out God exists and that you wasted your life preaching that he did not.

(more)

Radorth

Read a history book sometime. The greatest myth in history is that we can make the world better by excercising the human will, which is exactly what you believe. IMO that is the most incredibly self-righteous, ignorant and presumptious myth ever proffered around here.

Thanks. I'll keep my "myth" and you keep yours. At least mine doesn't ask anybody to do what nobody in history has ever been able to do. Bertrandt Russell was a pacifist who spent his whole life preaching we should be nice to each other. What the hell did he accomplish? I bet he didn't believe in "sin" either. Sargent York did more to stop evil in a day than Russell did in his whole life.

My friend, one nutball can undo all the good works of a million people, and it will keep happening. It isn't just I who lives in la-la land. You are preaching your own fantastic "salvation" message, but yours has no rational basis whatsoever, but is based on some imaginar man-made goodness nobody has ever seen.

Nice try though.

Rad

Radorth

Really? What did they inform you of which changed anything at all?

Rad