Asha'man

It would be just like heaven: everybody is always happy, there is no suffering, but everybody still has all their freewill.

Since heaven is possible, clearly it must be possible to make Earth work the same way, right?

Vorkosigan

No problem. So why didn't god divert the flow of lava and steam and ash, or pick up Pompeii and move it to Tahiti for the duration, or put up an impenetrable dome over the city, or at least warn the inhabitants with a personal appearance? Any decent person, even if they are unable to stop the eruption, would at least warn the populace. So the conclusion is that god is indifferent, evil, or not around. I'm for 3 myself.

Vorkosigan

Stormy

I am glad that you do not have your eyes closed tight.

Of course it would be possible for God to create a Heaven like Earth.

But then what kind of people would we have become?

Surely you know how much man has grown in his time on Earth.

Yes, the evil has grown right along with the good.

But still mankind is maturing.

God's plans are good. He has given us everything.

From God... We have, by nature, all that is needed for our physical bodies.

From God... We have, through the Spirit, all that is needed for us to know true love, peace, and joy.

When an Atheist complains about God, I think it is because he has only accepted a part of all the gifts that God has offered to man.

K

Stormy:

Uh, we would become like the people in Heaven. Is there something wrong with the people in Heaven? And if Heaven makes you become the kind of person you don't want to be, do you really want to go there?

Stormy

You think?


I do not spend a lot of time trying to improve upon God and his plans for mankind. I find it not only foolish, but also futile.

I would rather play the hand I am dealt.

But I wonder...

How would man have opened his heart, and known empathy, if there were no one who needed care and comfort? How would we gain strength, if life had no trials? What is love, if it is forced?

I know that God has good things in store for me when this life is over.

But Heaven can wait.

I am enjoying this Earth and all the people. For I know in my heart, that when I take my final steps and it all fades away.... I will miss not only the flowers, but also the weeds.

Thomas Metcalf

Originally posted by Stormy :

Imagine a situation in which young children feel 10% less pain from cancer. You seem to think that in this situation, we would lose the ability to have strength and sympathy. (I have no idea what you mean about forced love.) But you seem to be assuming that God doesn't exist. So I'm wondering why an atheist is attempting to answer the arguments from evil.

The reason I think you assume God doesn't exist is that you're assuming God isn't omnipotent. Suppose God brought about the situation in which young children felt 10% less pain from cancer. But then he gifted humans with 10% better empathic abilities, that is, a better propensity to develop sympathy. Furthermore, suppose God also gifted us with 10% more courage. In this situation, there would be no net detraction from the character of the souls of humans, but there would be significantly less suffering of children. This entire situation is logically possible and bring-about-able by an agent, so if you assume God can't do it, you're assuming God isn't omnipotent.

Free Thinkr

Okay, so you say god should let us live how we want, fair enough. But there are many unnecessary evils in the world. Why does malaria exist? Why do our teeth rot (remember, we have only been able to prevent this recently)? Why childhood leukemia? If god exists, he sure put a huge amount of suffering in the world for no apparent reason.

hinduwoman

stormy, do you think that the poor and suffering from whom we learn empathy are happy about this? Do they really want to suffer just so they can teach people about love?

Jackalope

I'll note that the people who claim that suffering is neccessary are very seldom those who are doing the real suffering. Some of us weren't asked if we wanted to be an example to the rest of humanity.

Godot

As to the PoE, I think it goes a great deal towards weakening any value of an omni-deity in the Abrahamic tradition )poorly worded, I know). Means nothing when applied to a pantheon though.

I'd like to know if you are advocating an interventionist or non-interventionist deity here. The former suggests an incompetent deity, and the latter a total bastard. Speculating on the kind of plans either of these has in store makes me shudder.

Doesn't this conflict with free will? If you believe that god has plans for you, then what does the least decision of yours matter? If these plans are foreordained, then nothing you can do can alter them. Or at least, the decisions you do make are not a true choice of yours: you're more of an automaton in a game of anothers choosing.