Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Autonemesis · 03-08-2002, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diggler St.:
<strong>To articulate that there is no “god” (not meaning Xian god) is to state an individual has enough knowledge to know there is no “god”. However, this individual can never have enough knowledge, data, or facts to be 100% accurate in stating there is no “god”. This individual would have to be entirely knowledgeable to everything, because if there are possibilities out of said wisdom then the possibility, in theory, could be “god”. This same individual would also, in conjunction with being all-knowing, have to be omnipresent, because if this individual was not then where he/she isn’t could be considered “god”. There is no individual that can declare complete knowledge or be everywhere all at once. Therefore, atheism is self-refuting. And creation is always a possibility.
</strong>

If there is no Christian (or Abrahamic) god, then there is no punishment in the afterlife for disobeying him; if there is but the god of the deist (whether we can discover its existence or not) that created the universe but no longer interacts with it, does it really matter if one believes or does not believe in this god? It seems to me that if god exists but is 10 shades lighter than a neutrino and never affects, or is affected by, anything in the universe, we ought to discard the idea as useless.

If we have discarded the idea of god as useless, why should we not conduct our lives, and speak, as if it didn't exist?

Diggler St. · 03-11-2002, 10:14 AM

Draygomb,

You state:.

God's have always been created as Conscious (Aware of their surroundings and able to think) and powerful.

So god are created? By what?

Then...

The nature of god's is to evolve more and more power as their previous powers are taken away by our understanding of nature.

So we take away god's power because of our understanding? You know god's nature? What else did he tell you?

And...

So I merely went for the most power a thing could have, the power to create everything else.

Like the big bang or the sun or Zues or...

Finally...

But god must still be conscious for without that he is no better than an exploding bomb. A really big bomb but a bomb just the same.
All Hail Da Bomb

An unconscious god would be unaware of your attempts to worship it, would be unable to instruct you on how to worship or even how to live your life.

Modern thought has it that if god isn't the first cause then god was created by the first cause which means the first cause is greater than god.

So, an unconscious god would be unaware of us worshiping it, hmmm, well:

Again, counsciousness is a property of the brain. Let's say god has one, a brain that is. I have unconsiously smoked an entire pack of cigarettes in my sleep and didn't know it until I noticed it the next morning. Who's to say god didn't create the universe unconsciously and doesn't know about it, because if he had a brain he would need sleep. That could be one reason god doesn't reveal himself, because he doesn't know he did it yet. Comets unconsciously zoom across the galaxy crashing into moons and CREATE craters in the moons. What I'm getting at is the same thing I've been saying. You say god would be aware of his surroundings, what is god's surroundings, boundries, etc. and why does god have to be capable of thought? <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Diggler St. · 03-11-2002, 10:25 AM

Oh!

Draycomb:

You state about modern thought is that if god isn't first cause then first cause created god. Is this part of your theory? Or, is it just an anonymous statement? Because that would contradict your current belief...

Diggler St. · 03-11-2002, 10:31 AM

Kind Bud,

I'm not sure what you're asking me, I don't of the idea of god's existence or non-existence as useless, the subject interests me. But I can see what you are saying...

Diggler St. · 03-11-2002, 11:08 AM

Britinusa,

You mentioned the term God-conscious, in what context do you define that, I can only relate that to a religion known as Humuh which is the religion of the enlightened mind, and the god of this is the god of the divine self.

spin · 03-11-2002, 11:26 AM

Draygomb: "Are souls conscious?
Do they need a physical mind? I don't think so. Nor do I think god would need a physical mind in order to be conscious."

What's a soul and how do you know about it? You might be able in some imaginative way to define what a soul is, but we can imagine all sorts of things if we put our minds to it. How you know about this whatever it is is ultimately what is interesting. I would claim that you don't know and can't know, that it is an ancient idea that has no value, yet it is brought forward into this day because of its connection with other religious beliefs. Obviously when a body dies and ends up wormfood, it's a little hard to imagine that this is where it all ends, but then there's no body left. Hey, let's have something else that's us, you know, a ... what shall we call it? umm, a sole, no we've already got those, I know a soul. You can't point to it, you can't see it, or hear it, smell it or taste it. It's perfect as you cannot say that it doesn't exist. The only problem is that you cannot know that it exists either.

But then, if one can talk about souls, one can talk about consciousness which is not in "physical minds". Minds are not of course in themselves physical, but I guess they need a brain which can host a mind. So, can a mind or the equivalent, which is normally hosted by a brain, exist outside any known physical state (which I guess is necessary for the substance of a soul)? My conclusion is almost certainly not, but fertile minds can imagine such existences.

Draygomb · 03-11-2002, 11:27 AM

Diggler

It's Simple. God needs to be conscious because if he isn't then he isn't worthy of the title of god.

If God is just Da Bomb then why not just call it Da Bomb? Why try to make it out to be more than it is?

britinusa · 03-11-2002, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diggler St.:
<strong>Britinusa,

You mentioned the term God-conscious, in what context do you define that, I can only relate that to a religion known as Humuh which is the religion of the enlightened mind, and the god of this is the god of the divine self.</strong>

Oh, I just threw that in to end this silly semantic game. Draygomb made the original point that "Without consciousness a thing is no better than a rock even if that rock can produce universes. Such a thing would not know or care that I existed". Blu (and others) cry foul, complaining that "consciousness" is a human characteristic. Everyone taking part in this thread understands exactly the point Draygomb was making, but some decided to get cute.
I'll give it one last shot: either "god" is an intelligent being, who knows what he's doing, can make decisions, act on those decision... or not.
This really isn't rocket science, you know.

hinduwoman · 03-12-2002, 04:00 PM

It is true that we do not have 100% knowledge to say with certainity that no god exists. But I think the argument cuts both ways --- we do not have 100% knowledge to say with certainity that any god exists.

Draygomb · 03-13-2002, 09:09 AM

Spin

Having had an Out of Body Experience, The Idea of a consciousness existing without a physical body is very real to me.

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03-11-2002, 10:14 AM	#62
Diggler St. Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 19	Draygomb, You state:. God's have always been created as Conscious (Aware of their surroundings and able to think) and powerful. So god are created? By what? Then... The nature of god's is to evolve more and more power as their previous powers are taken away by our understanding of nature. So we take away god's power because of our understanding? You know god's nature? What else did he tell you? And... So I merely went for the most power a thing could have, the power to create everything else. Like the big bang or the sun or Zues or... Finally... But god must still be conscious for without that he is no better than an exploding bomb. A really big bomb but a bomb just the same. All Hail Da Bomb An unconscious god would be unaware of your attempts to worship it, would be unable to instruct you on how to worship or even how to live your life. Modern thought has it that if god isn't the first cause then god was created by the first cause which means the first cause is greater than god. So, an unconscious god would be unaware of us worshiping it, hmmm, well: Again, counsciousness is a property of the brain. Let's say god has one, a brain that is. I have unconsiously smoked an entire pack of cigarettes in my sleep and didn't know it until I noticed it the next morning. Who's to say god didn't create the universe unconsciously and doesn't know about it, because if he had a brain he would need sleep. That could be one reason god doesn't reveal himself, because he doesn't know he did it yet. Comets unconsciously zoom across the galaxy crashing into moons and CREATE craters in the moons. What I'm getting at is the same thing I've been saying. You say god would be aware of his surroundings, what is god's surroundings, boundries, etc. and why does god have to be capable of thought? <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

03-11-2002, 10:25 AM	#63
Diggler St. Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 19	Oh! Draycomb: You state about modern thought is that if god isn't first cause then first cause created god. Is this part of your theory? Or, is it just an anonymous statement? Because that would contradict your current belief...

03-11-2002, 10:31 AM	#64
Diggler St. Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 19	Kind Bud, I'm not sure what you're asking me, I don't of the idea of god's existence or non-existence as useless, the subject interests me. But I can see what you are saying...

03-11-2002, 11:08 AM	#65
Diggler St. Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 19	Britinusa, You mentioned the term God-conscious, in what context do you define that, I can only relate that to a religion known as Humuh which is the religion of the enlightened mind, and the god of this is the god of the divine self.

03-11-2002, 11:26 AM	#66
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Draygomb: "Are souls conscious? Do they need a physical mind? I don't think so. Nor do I think god would need a physical mind in order to be conscious." What's a soul and how do you know about it? You might be able in some imaginative way to define what a soul is, but we can imagine all sorts of things if we put our minds to it. How you know about this whatever it is is ultimately what is interesting. I would claim that you don't know and can't know, that it is an ancient idea that has no value, yet it is brought forward into this day because of its connection with other religious beliefs. Obviously when a body dies and ends up wormfood, it's a little hard to imagine that this is where it all ends, but then there's no body left. Hey, let's have something else that's us, you know, a ... what shall we call it? umm, a sole, no we've already got those, I know a soul. You can't point to it, you can't see it, or hear it, smell it or taste it. It's perfect as you cannot say that it doesn't exist. The only problem is that you cannot know that it exists either. But then, if one can talk about souls, one can talk about consciousness which is not in "physical minds". Minds are not of course in themselves physical, but I guess they need a brain which can host a mind. So, can a mind or the equivalent, which is normally hosted by a brain, exist outside any known physical state (which I guess is necessary for the substance of a soul)? My conclusion is almost certainly not, but fertile minds can imagine such existences.

03-11-2002, 11:27 AM	#67
Draygomb Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Harrisburg, Pa Posts: 3,251	Diggler It's Simple. God needs to be conscious because if he isn't then he isn't worthy of the title of god. If God is just Da Bomb then why not just call it Da Bomb? Why try to make it out to be more than it is?

03-12-2002, 04:00 PM	#69
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	It is true that we do not have 100% knowledge to say with certainity that no god exists. But I think the argument cuts both ways --- we do not have 100% knowledge to say with certainity that any god exists.

03-13-2002, 09:09 AM	#70
Draygomb Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Harrisburg, Pa Posts: 3,251	Spin Having had an Out of Body Experience, The Idea of a consciousness existing without a physical body is very real to me.

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